Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

First Riot Post
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eatsgokuforlunch

Senior Member

04-05-2014

@Rengarbage its not a completely free game you moron people have spent much money and time on it ******!


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QapuKhalqi

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanleyyyyyy View Post
Fuq you we want old rengar!
You aren't getting him back!


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eatsgokuforlunch

Senior Member

04-05-2014

I just want this RENGAR to NOT BE RETARDED pls Scruffy answer us you nerflord ...


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inplane

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rengarbage View Post
Hey everyone,
I'm a little disgusted by how rude the comments have been getting towards Scruffy and Riot in general. You're all acting like we are superior or something since we are the consumer. Well guess what, it's a free game made by Riot, and we have no right to say anything rude. Also, I promise you that Scruffy is only trying to improve the game. Do you truly believe that he wakes up in the morning and plans to purposefully agitate people? If you do, you're wrong.
If you all want Riot to go about changing Rengar to something else, try to state your opinion in a civilized manner.
In fact, I can see why Riot re-posts the supporting comments - because many of the opposing are so hateful that I have trouble reading them.
Your name tells us so much about you.


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ForMyNextTrick

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rengarbage View Post
Hey everyone,
I'm a little disgusted by how rude the comments have been getting towards Scruffy and Riot in general. You're all acting like we are superior or something since we are the consumer. Well guess what, it's a free game made by Riot, and we have no right to say anything rude. Also, I promise you that Scruffy is only trying to improve the game. Do you truly believe that he wakes up in the morning and plans to purposefully agitate people? If you do, you're wrong.
If you all want Riot to go about changing Rengar to something else, try to state your opinion in a civilized manner.
In fact, I can see why Riot re-posts the supporting comments - because many of the opposing are so hateful that I have trouble reading them.
I dont understand why this guy has so many downvotes, basically everything he said is true, except for a few things.
I understand that we're all pretty damn angry at riot for letting this rework through but come'on half of these comments are telling riot scruffy what a horrible person he is... like really?

On the other hand the riot has to man up and face all the angry players, even in they do read all the comments (personally i think they do) avoiding the angry comments just isnt going to work. Not responding gives the players the impression of being ignored, not to mention all of their replies are few and far in between. I get that they must be busy, but they need to scratch out more time to respond here


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Havik223

Senior Member

04-05-2014

His Q and E feel a lot slower. Also I will bold this so it isn't missed (not sure if it's been said before): THE DAMAGE FROM HIS AUTO ATTACK AFTER THE ULT LEAP DOES NO DAMAGE so yeah that's kind of a huge problem.

I like that his kit now scales with level so I can use whatever I want depending on the situation, but honestly with his new E being so easy to block and dodge, I end up using Q almost all the time. Also, why does the new bola do less damage? It's now a dedicated one-point-wonder, but it does less damage than before.

Also, where are the buffs? I was told that taking away his burst would result in buffs in the other areas of his play style. The burst is gone, but all he has now is a little bit of health per level. His health regen sucks still and his armor and MR are pretty underwhelming. Now that he has to stick to his target to kill them he should have the stats to do so. The roar does help, but if I'm hitting 4 people with my roar, that's 4 people who are about to murder me.

I understand where you're coming from with these changes; making him not pop out and murder things instantly since he can't be stopped. But overall he doesn't feel very impactful. He was only useful in that regard because of his ability to triple Q, but when that was killed he fell off in terms of power by a lot. Now his Q seems to be changed for high-damage builds focusing on burst, but he can't burst. It takes too long to generate the ferocity to kill a carry. So you've done this weird thing where you tried to change him to be semi-bruiser/fighter/frontliner, but the stats on the moves make burst seem like the only option for killing things.

He's too easy to peel given his new E and ulti. I agree that his last setup was problematic, but this one just doesn't feel right.


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eatsgokuforlunch

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Havik223 View Post
His Q and E feel a lot slower. Also I will bold this so it isn't missed (not sure if it's been said before): THE DAMAGE FROM HIS AUTO ATTACK AFTER THE ULT LEAP DOES NO DAMAGE so yeah that's kind of a huge problem.

I like that his kit now scales with level so I can use whatever I want depending on the situation, but honestly with his new E being so easy to block and dodge, I end up using Q almost all the time. Also, why does the new bola do less damage? It's now a dedicated one-point-wonder, but it does less damage than before.

Also, where are the buffs? I was told that taking away his burst would result in buffs in the other areas of his play style. The burst is gone, but all he has now is a little bit of health per level. His health regen sucks still and his armor and MR are pretty underwhelming. Now that he has to stick to his target to kill them he should have the stats to do so. The roar does help, but if I'm hitting 4 people with my roar, that's 4 people who are about to murder me.

I understand where you're coming from with these changes; making him not pop out and murder things instantly since he can't be stopped. But overall he doesn't feel very impactful. He was only useful in that regard because of his ability to triple Q, but when that was killed he fell off in terms of power by a lot. Now his Q seems to be changed for high-damage builds focusing on burst, but he can't burst. It takes too long to generate the ferocity to kill a carry. So you've done this weird thing where you tried to change him to be semi-bruiser/fighter/frontliner, but the stats on the moves make burst seem like the only option for killing things.

He's too easy to peel given his new E and ulti. I agree that his last setup was problematic, but this one just doesn't feel right.
^

its like at the end of his leap he gets stuck on his target and takes .5 sec to touch the ground and still does no damage on top of his already non damage normal q


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Havik223

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonsBane View Post
The Q change effectively turned it into a glorified AA reset that doesn't work on towers. This change just makes me laugh. If you're worried about rengar's split push why can Nasus Q turrets? TF bluecard + lichbane can literally 4 shot a tower and yet rengar isn't allowed the capability to.
Just wanted to point this out because it's so ****ing true.


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dragonstrike45

Member

04-05-2014

This post concerns those who actually wish to learn the new Rengar and/or those who wish to offer constructive arguments as to the viability of reworked Rengar and where he stands now. If you don't wish to do either of the following, please don't feel the need to read any further.

Re-iterating Why He Needed a Rework in the First Place:
So after seeing the new Rengar, many of us (myself for quite a while too) feel that Rengar should be given back his former "power" of being an assassin. So let me re-iterate why he needed the rework in the first place. First of all, old Rengar had a few mechanics that were either overwhelming or underwhelming depending on the situation. The ability to front-load 5.0 AD into a champ with 2 auto-attack resets was bad enough. To add to the problem - he didn't have any means to contribute meaningfully to a fight if he failed, of if he got CC'd in the middle of if things didn't roll PERFECTLY. You might ask, don't we have Riven, Fizz, Kha'zix, Zed, all the nukers? Surely Rengar didn't deserve gutting anymore than these champs do? Well nobody and I mean NOBODY would be facechecking a bush with a fed Riven, Fizz or Kha'zix on the enemy team. Imagine if that bush could move? That's pretty much Rengar used to be. No warning aside from the leap (approx. 0.5s) and another 0.75 ish seconds to get his burst off would more-or-less guarantee another trophy to his collection against squishes. Yes this had VERY LITTLE COUNTERPLAY! The other main issue was how little it took to get to this stage. Bonetooth, Black-cleaver and another Brutalizer was all he needed to start 3-shotting squishes. That was just assassin Rengar being good. To get ahead, he could still max Bola's and make point and click abilities the trademark way to trade against his laning opponent - skills required to annoy? Nope. Did it guarantee a lane-win? Nope. But did it make it very frustrating to play against? Yup. In addition, if his enemy team was coordinated with proper warding, itemization and defensive measures, killing a squishy could be ruled out if the first 3 attacks wouldn't be able to kill them - after which point Rengar would need to burn Flash or sit there to die. These highlight some of the key issues that made Rengar, RENGAR, when he was ahead and made Rengar, RENGAR, when he was behind. Meaning? Lack of counterplay and meaningful mechanics made balancing Rengar an issue of more than just balancing his numbers. Hence, we have the Rework today.

Current Status of Kit and Viable Build Paths:
Now as for the current kit:
- His Q received a 50% increase in usage. Many argue that his lack of attackspeed makes him weak now. Yes it does - early game, and ONLY in lane. In the jungle, his lower cooldown on Q makes him much more sustainable to jungle with - more ferocity W's = more heals (in a simplified form).
- His W received a useful teamfight buff. I would argue though, that the more significant change actually comes with de-coupling his Empowered Ability Dmg from his normal ability level. What this allows is for Jungar's early level Emp. W dmg to actually be meaningful even if he maxes Q. The other buff to note is that his sustain while at lower HP is higher than b4. This rewards MEANINGFUL use of ferocity in both trades and jungle!
- His E was transformed into a longer-range skillshot! Buff/Nerf? Well I would argue that it's more USEFUL! It's a MUCH better escape tool to throw behind himself if being chased. It gives longer range and meaningful counterplay for the enemy, so that they can actually dodge it if they're smart. His Empowered E packs a much greater reward for landing it by increasing snare-time and base damage.
- His R was reworked so that later in the game, it would situationally become the same ultimate that it used to be. However, now it is MUCH more useful, if the player decides to PLAN their ganks. Rengar can start 5 ferocity, go in to gank with his ultimate, and upon landing, gets a MEANINGFUL movementspeed boost along with ferocity generation IN-COMBAT! This allows multiple (2-3) ferocity powered abilities in a short window! In the right hands, this is HUGE!
- Last but not least, his Bonetooth Necklace. Possibly one of his more underrated changes, but in fact is monstrous if you look at the fact that he's getting free scaling on abilities provided he participates in teamfights/kills. This is his version of adapting to Kha'zix's Evolutions . Great job on making it free AND a trinket Riot!
Now, this is not saying that everything about the New Rengar is great! No! This is saying: Look how he's been changed and adapt to it! In the right-hands he can still be a monster!

Now to discuss how these changes impact his build patterns. You guys said, and rightly so, that he lost his AD ratios and hence his early game damage. He also lost his free AS buff on Q which allowed him to at least be a threat 1v1 early game. This is more-or-less black and white. I agree with that. However, he scales MUCH MUCH better in terms of versatility of builds, and gameplay. Take some time and think about this for a second:

1) He can build like a Hyper-Carry should the situation demand it. Before you say "WTF Noob! GTFO!" - make a simple comparison between Rengar and Yi. That's right. 10% AD scaling, 45% MS for 5s and 100% attackspeed for 5s, coupled with Facetanker stats a slow, and 2 autoattack resets? Ya that's carry potential. If you think his burst is gone - ya his FREE burst is gone. He can still build like a carry and act as a carry, because he has the stat-amplifiers to do so! Am I saying Rengar = Yi? No! Is Yi viable as a competitive pick? Not yet! The thing is Rengar gets a direct initiation path to his target, while a hyper-carry or many assassins perchance, would need to weave through the team to get to their target. WTF Pink Ward noob GG! Not really. Think about it. You're not 1v5ing their team. You have 4 allies that they need to be concerned about as well. Coupled with the fact that you're not the initiator, and the fact that you could take a smart path to ambush their carry, he could very well become viable as a carry if the player and team build smart, and play smart. This is just Rengar outside bushes with that kind of Carry Lvl dmg. Imagine bushfights - God forbid!

2.) He can build Off-Tank/Bruiser and scale into late game. HOW? Building defense would actually focus on what Riot intended his kit to be with this rework. Still be able to deal significant levels of sustained damage, a meaningful threat, and be able to take a beating while doing just that. His R puts him ON TOP of the ADC if he plays it right (or any champion of his choice), and from there, he can put his low cooldowns on his new Q, mixed with 2-3 empowered abilities to go to town with the enemy carry should they stand and fight (which, if they're in their right mind, they wouldn't do)! Significant damage, HOW? Uhhh. Autoattack reset on Q, sticking power, a second autoattack reset on Empowered Q with AD/AS bonus - ya he would be dealing ALOT of damage.

3.) He can build Full-Tank with 1 Offensive item, such as Triforce. HOW? His lower cooldowns, and much higher base damages on all his Empowered abilities and sticking power would actually contribute to significant damage on the enemy carries/champs in a teamfight - yes sticking power increases sustained damage by much more than people give credit for.

Note these three builds require different styles of play, itemization, and would be dependant on what the TEAM NEEDS Rengar to be! If you're a solo-Q player, or a fan of assassin Rengar, feel free to experiment with Crit-builds! Rengar's ability to "one-shot" squishes is still there. It's just that his squishes at least get a little window of time (however short that may be) to react, and at least TRY to escape before they're gutted.

Potential Improvements:
Last, but not least, for improvements. I've talked about why Rengar was changed, as well as how he was changed for the better. I also talked about Rengar as if he's perfect atm - which he ISN'T. There are a few changes that could be considered depending on how he plays out over the next few weeks (2 days worth of testing is very little data)! Potential changes:
- Faster Q autoattack-animation (talked about by many of you in other posts).
- Lower CD on Q if his damage appears insufficient (Eg. 5s at Rank 1 to 3s at Rank 5).
- Faster missile speed on his E -> right now, his slow missile speed gives TOO MUCH counterplay in my opinion. Perhaps slightly longer-range on his E would also work as a slight buff.
- Penalty of missing Empowered E is too high! Although refunding too much ferocity runs the consequence of giving little penalty for missing his Empowered E (which is really strong) -> he should get at least SOMETHING back? (1 or 2 ferocity)??

These are my thoughts on the Live Rango. Feel free to let me know your opinions CONSTRUCTIVELY please! He's not perfect, but he's not far off either. Small QoL changes from Riot's End and Flexibility and Willingness to adapt from the Player's End would make Rengar the PrideStalker he was always meant to be!

- Rango Lover Out!


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Dagartru

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Both Rengar and Kha'Zix gutted, ashame...my 2 favorite champions in the game in terms of lore and rivalry are both throw up now.

Thanks Riot .