I'm slightly satisfied with this rework of Rengar, but there are a few changes which I strongly dislike as well as a few changes I feel were unfinished and could be more refined. I'll start with Rengar's Q:
Savagery - Q - Savagery right now is really... underwhelming. It doesn't proc on turrets, and later on in the game it does not even provide much damage. I feel there are a few things that could use improvement on his Savagery:
- Allow it to proc on turrets. The empowered savagery would not be allowed to proc on turrets however (I will discuss why later).
- Increase the base damage and scaling by a decent amount: Base Damage would be 40/75/110/145/180 from 20/40/60/80/100, AD Scaling would be 110/115/120/125/130% of total AD (a 10% increase overall). This gives him a bit more early game damage for trading, which would be nice since 20 bonus physical damage for one early game Q doesn't really do much.
Empowered Savagery - Q - (Empowered) - The ability is nice with it's extra damage, and having such a huge steroid for 5 seconds is also very nice, there are just a few things about it that are shared with it's unempowered version, but to a lesser extent.
- Maybe increase the base damage just a little bit so that at level 1 it is about 45, and by level 18 it is about 265. Increase the ratio to 160% of total AD. The rest remains the same.
- I will clarify that this ability should NOT be able to proc on turrets because it's high damage in addition to it's two steroids would make him push towers just as fast as his Pre-Rework counterpart and was a huge reason for his changes originally.
Battle Roar - W - I enjoy this ability very much. It greatly increases his tanking ability, and since the rework has turned him into a fighter for the most part, it is a very well made ability for him. +1 to Scruffy.
Empowered Battle Roar - W (Empowered) - The heal is much more rewarding now and the increased damage is welcome. Another well made part of his kit.
Bola Strike - E - A pretty well balanced ability, a minor improvement or two would make this nice.
- Make it so it will reveal the target that it hit for a few seconds. Primarily a jungle change, it provides him with an escape and overall jungle mobility. Could also be used to check if buffs are currently alive. Maybe the reveal highlights the target similar to how his Ultimate does this?
- Maybe increase the speed and size of the bola by a little bit, since if you miss it you are punished quite hard for the way Rengar plays.
Empowered Bola Strike - E (Empowered) - Same mentions as above, making it reveal things and having it easier to hit would be nice since missing an Empowered Bola Strike would be quite punishing.
Thrill Of The Hunt - R - I strongly enjoy this ability. I heard you may be changing this so that the warning to his "Prey" appears only if he were in a place where he would normally be seen, so if he uses it while in a bush they are not alerted of his presence. I like this idea and support it. There are just a few things about it that feel clunky to me.
- 7 seconds on it is kind of short (although I know the BTN Trinket increases the duration @ 12 trophies), maybe if there was a smaller disparity, like 9 seconds for a normal Ultimate, increased by 3 seconds (12 total) when you have 12 trophies for your BTN trinket.
- Maybe instead of an exclamation mark, it could be a debuff in your enemies' buff bars? This would require the player to be at least be aware of their buff bar showing an unfamiliar icon rather than seeing an exclamation above their Champion and running away.
Bonetooth Necklace Trinkets - I've loved this change since the day it was coined in the rework thread, one of the best things about this rework in my opinion. Once again, good job to those who work with Scruffy on the Rengar Rework. Also, as for the Head of Kha'Zix thing, I am not really on my opinion of that.
This version of Knifecat definitely has potential without toxicity, he just needs a good bump in the right direction.
TL;DR You read whole wall of text and don't complain.
A very minor point, but with the changes to Bonetooth Necklace I was wondering if there would be any changes to the head of Kha'zix item from 'The Hunt is On!' event. Pre-rework the most attractive part (at least in my opinion) of winning that duel and getting the event item as Rengar, was the fact that you couldn't lose stacks anymore. Seeing as the Bonetooth Necklace no longer loses stacks, the only thing that the Head of Kha'zix grants you is max stacks from whatever number you were on (10 being the minimum to trigger the event). It might take a bit longer but by participating in enough teamfights you can get those last 10 (or less) stacks anyway.
TL;DR, I don't feel like the Head of Kha'zix is as good as a 4th evolution point now that you cannot lose stacks on Bonetooth
It is understandable that his Savagery damage to towers was taken away so tha it prevent hyper tower killing, his Bola Strike was buffed to turn it into a skillshot, and nerfing the bonuses for Bonetooth Necklace because having an extra boot and a brutalizer in one item among other hard buffs is pretty broken. Those are the changes that I, a frequent Rengar player, understand.
What you guys did to his Battle Roar was pretty good. Props
However, what I believe you guys messed up on in this rework is his Savagery AS being taken away messed him up. In this meta, there's not a lot of top laners Rengar can match up against (Renekton, Shyv, Mundo, Nasus, Irelia, Jax) so the jungle is where he fits best. The AS bonus being taken away from his Savagery messes up his early clear time (which was not great to begin with).
His ult warning people when hes within 1000 range is a bit too much. Maybe I'm not used to it, but people usually never stick around when that exclamation point shows up above their head. It's not like a Nocturne ult where he can fly out from the jungle to the lane even though the target knows he's there. What I don't get is that you gave him the same type of "scare people" warning like Noct but this ult is not nearly as effective. Yes, it can maybe pick off people that are uberly out of positioning (and don't know how to Flash) but it just doesn't work. No general speed bonus caused a real mess on that ult. It might work well in 1 v 1 situations but this puts a dent in Rengar's roaming potential. Maybe you guys should give a warning when Eve's within 1000 range and when Pantheon is within 1000 range so that laners can know when to back to tower because that's what you did to Rengar's ult.
My biggest problem of the rework is that his double casting is stupidly delayed. I found many squishes getting away with little health due to the delay between the double cast. This rework made Rengar a useless champ. His split pushing potential was hugely reduced (AS buff being taken away) and even more so his assassination potential (forever delay on that doublecast). I fail to see what his use and niche is in the game if he can't do one of the two very well or both at an adequate level. There are tons of better split pushers, tons of better assassins (KHAZIX) and tons of better tanks.
as hard as riot worked on this I'm surprised that people reacted so negatively.
I think the main issue here is that rengar lacks identity in most peoples eyes. Tell us what you want him to be and then build his kit around that instead of making him subpar at like 3 different roles.
I think thats the general gist of why people are mad.
Allow me to introduce myself first, my IGN is DdC ThanatoZ, I was D1 season 3, diamond 3 in this season(haven't played that much) and I'm a Rengar main, I have played him since his first PBE release(around July 2012) and I have around 2.5 - 3k games with him spread through several accounts that range from gold to diamond, I had around 300 ranked games with him in s2, 900 in s3 and almost 100 this season before the rework on my main account, I will try to be as constructive as possible considering the amount and degree of bad decisions that you and Scarizard made throughout the entire rework process and the fact that I'm kind of angry. Let's begin:
-The Q, not only it feels really clunky and buggy with the delay between double cast, the no casting right after a leap and the fact that it doesn't work on turrets anymore. This skill feels really nerfed, the early dmg is pretty much non existent and you don't get the AS bonus to get the upper hand in trades, the empowered Q feels lackluster too and again the fact that it doesn't work on turrets is kind of annoying.
-The W, kind of a decent change but is a straight up nerf, let me explain, for the top lane that armor and mr that you get now since you are on a 1 on 1 situation is lower, in the jungle too, is a buff for tankgar but he is still lackluster in that role too(I'll elaborate on that later in the post)
-The E is one of your worse decisions in the rework(yours and Scarizard), completely killed top Rengar and is nothing worth of amazement in the jungle, if you miss the emp E not only you failed on providing your only cc to the gank but also you don't have any damage or utility tool to follow up, no champion in the jungle gets punished as hard except for a few but they more than make up for that by either bringing a really strong cc in the form of an ultimate but also most of them are really really tanky, examples, amumu - you miss bandage you can walk up and use ult and your bandage will probably be up again since it doesn't have such a long cd, sejuani - your Q, if you miss it it is still a gap closer and you also have that strong ultimate in terms on cc which you can follow up with your E for a massive slow, nautilus - if you miss the Q you are not punished as hard since you have a point and click ultimate which provides decent amount of cc, lee sin- if u miss Q you can ward jump and slow them with cripple and I can keep going on, of course this situations are just for the sake of argument, like i mentioned they have other tools to give cc and dmg but in this case Rengar doesn't, the emp E is his emtire contribution to a gank, you have no follow up, true it can be decent if you hit it but then again if you manage to pull a gank with him you woulda have got a gank three times better with other jungler, on the top lane, E is pointless except for getting 1 ferocity point, forget trying to poke a champion wit it not only it gets blocked but the dmg in not empowered state is laughable.
-R, the fact that it doesn't give you ms and you don't stack ferocity anymore means that you need to have 5 ferocity stacks ready to be able to even try to do something or else you are just a worse version of Master Yi, both can be cc'd but Master Yi is invulnerable to slows which Rengar isn't, I know your excuse for the ult not granting ms anymore is the fact that the necklace gives you ms with stacks but I will talk about that in the next point, about the warning, is completely unnecessary, if you compare him to other stealth champions none of them give you a warning that they are on you, to make things even worse, these stealths skills are 1 passive and a bunch of Qs, Rengar's is an ultimate which makes things even worse, an ultimate should be like its name says, your ultimate ability, the ability that opens the most possibilities for your champions, in the comparisons we got twitch, his Q not only lasts more, gives you ms, gives you a huge amount of AS, has a 10 sec cd or less but twitch has a lot more burst potential than Rengar since he most of the time gets items like IE, BotrK, PD and expunge nuke is really strong, shaco's stealth is his Q, grants him 100% crit, has like an 8 sec cd but also your only warning is a puff of smoke which most of the times you don't even see in the FoW, the japanese shaco skin makes things worse since the smoke is grey instead of orange so good luck seeing it in the FoW, now you would bring the argument of eve giving you a warning but surprise surprise it doesn't, why do I say this? because as soon as she is in the border of the circle which allows you to detect her, she just pops her W for a MASSIVE ms bonus, also her R is a massive slow and if she hits you with a Q E or AA she still gets the passive part of her W which makes her gap closer and sticking potential even greater than Rengar's and she is stealthed the whole time. I'm not mad about the warning because is a warning but because is a warning on an ultimate when normal abilities less punishing when used(a lot less cd) have none.
-The necklace, dear God the necklace, where to begin, oh I know, remember how in one of the posts before of the rework even came to PBe if I recall correctly, you guys said that you wanted people to actually make a decision about when or if you should get the necklace at all in a game, good thing you made it a trinket or nobody would buy it, is true that the old necklace was a bit cost efficient it honestly the real power was on the bonuses, to compare would be like sitting on a BF Sword while having the chance of getting a Bt, IE or Mercurial and your enemy had 200 armor, if you bought the necklace too early because you thought you were gonna snowball but then turns out you didn't it just ended up as paperweight in your inventory, the moment when a player bought the necklace differentiated the good Rengar players from the best, we would buy the necklace right at the moment when we knew there was gonna be a skirmish, a big teamfight or just if we were roaming a lot so we would get the 3 and 6 stack effects instantly. The bonuses of the new necklace are honestly a joke, you only pretty much get MS which doesn't make you a better duelist or tank or bruiser or assasin or w/e the role you think he is, I know you use this as excuse for the nerf on MS on ultimate since the last 2 bonuses are focused entirely on it but it is all worthless if you don't have the dmg to kill someone or the tankiness to even be a meatshield, a lot of your posts and the other unknown rioter Jag I think is his name mention that he has better stickiness now, that's just a lie, let me introduce you to popular marksmen with a lot of tools to kite you themselves, Draven(E), Caitlyn(E), Jinx(W,E), Ezreal(E), Lucian(E), Graves(E), Ashe(R,Q,W) stuns you as soon as you jump and kills you, good luck getting that Quinn(Q,E) now and other marksmen that I'm too lazy to look up right now. Honestly these bonuses are icing on a **** cake.
Overall Rengar used to be a niche pick, a champion with whom you could bypass front lines and get to that priority target if you played your cards right, sometimes you had a hard time against those bully laners like renekton, shyvanna but you had your E to either poke them down since you couldn't get close or just farm and get to that mid/late game status and delete people, you were and still are really vulnerable to ganks so you didn't win anything in that aspect as a Rengar player, you still have the same ultility in case of an ally gank but with less dmg.
I also remember how you guys mentioned that you wanted the Rengar player to actually make a decision in which ferocity ability to use at 5 stacks and now the only way to actually leave lane alive is maxing W and just spamming it in normal cd and using emp Q but since the W is now weaker in 1 on 1 situations, the hard matchups that you had before, beat the **** out of you, skill matchups that could go 50-50 now beat the **** out of you, and matchups that you used to straight up win now are 50-50, you gutted his already weak early game in exchange of a weaker late game too.
Another piece of information that you and Scarizard don't or didn't know because you don't play Rengar at all(a few months back Scarizard who was in charge, was diamond 3 last season with only 13 Rengar games, how is that even possible when you are in charge of a rework like that) the "lv 2 cheese" as you call it, got nerfed super hard when the jungle timers were pushed back, what made this lv 2 all in so strong was not the damage itself but the timing, when small camps spawned at 1:40, Rengar would go to lane already with 3 ferocity stacks if he started Q or E didn't matter, he would use that skill once again in lane to add up to 4 stacks and then as soon as he hit lv 2 he would all in you, sometimes even lv 1 if he started Q and you were a schmuck and let him hit you, but since the timers were nerfed he only came to lane with 1 stack and even though the damage was kind of still in there other top laners could push you up, poke you and you would still lose the lv 2 all in(e.g Renek) so you had to actually play the matchups carefully, now like I said you have to max W to get out of laning phase even, if not, feeding.
This part is a little bit of a rant but it has a lot of information so please read it, like I said I have a lot of Rengar games spread through seevral accounts in different servers and elos, like 2 weeks ago I had 4 bad days and I tanked a lot of lp so I decided to stop playing on my main for a bit to cool off because I was on tilt so I went to smurf to relax, I played on an acc that was bronze atm if I recall correctly ofc I didn't only play Rengar but I played a lot of different champions from Rengar to Lee Sin to Veigar and many others so you get an idea, what I could see is that people down in those leagues don't build deffensive items out of 10 games, only 2 contained GAs, those 2 games were past the 55 minute mark and the GAs were bought around 45 50 min mark for both teams, 4 or 5 out of those 10 games had zhonyas in which 3 of those games had them really delayed because the people playing didn't want to alter their build, like I said this wasn't only the case in my Rengar games but on several other champions with decent/strong burst who I got fed with, based on the fact that the complains come mostly from this area of the elo ladder, I would say that this players have no right to complain, sure smurfing is kind of a scumbag move but when players refuse to learn and just cry about everything I just get dissapointed. I hate myself for bringing this up but this next argument helps to my point, do you know why DotA players like their game more than LoL and why the supporters use this same argument in the discussion? The argument is that the skill floor is a lot higher than LoL which sadly is true for the most part, every hero in DotA would be seen as imbalanced on LoL e.g 7 second supress on Athropos? 14s to perma silence coming from Doombringer ult if he stays close to you? a 1.5 second bash on barathrum(Spirit walker) which is affected by RNG and AS, true that it may seem imbalanced but that's the beauty of it, I for once would like to go to Bronze-Plat and see people actually adapting to the rhythm of the game instead of just keep building what they think should be built not what is right to build in that situation, I would love for Riot to stop spoiling the players, these players complain a ton and since you deliver the nerf hammer instead of encouraging them to learn how to play they just whine when something else they don't like arises, yours and Scarizard's favorite excuse is the lack of counterplay, at the time I did my post on the Scarizard threat I put numbers, if he lacked counterplay, Rengar wouldn't lose in Ranked or would have been 100% pick ban but at the time he had a 47-48% win rate and his pick rate was below 8% if I recall correctly, the counterplay measures I mentioned were, pink wards(this was before vision changes but still applies, there can be up to 5 pinks in the map and a couple of oracle lenses), defensive items like GA, Randuins, Zhonyas, Warmogs, Spectral wraiths would also reveal Rengar and slow him, another that most people seem to skip is aggresive wards, is true that most of Rengar's threat comes from stealth but he is in fact visible most of the time, so good kind of aggresive wards can spot him at the point where he starts ulting.
Rengar before this rework was fine, it actually required skill to pull off the triple Q and also required skill to actually be a good Rengar player, know the matchups, know how to survive lane phase, know how to play teamfights with your poor teamfighting capabilities etc, the best measure right now to fix him would be revert the rework since like i mentioned, the Q is paperweight, same with the E, the W is kinda decent but in 1 v 1 situations is bad, and the fact that you can't snowball at all when other asassins/tanks can is awful.
I used to protect Riot like fan's protecting Justin Bieber, but now i'm officially done. This horse **** patch that nerfed Rengar to the core is too much for me. I brought Rengar because he was a good split-pusher and a good squishy melter, then this **** came along. I'm done. If Riot doesn't fix this within the next 1 or 2 patch i'm quitting League, because all Riot is doing is making **** patches.
I kind of have a question. Why did they make bone-tooth necklace into a trinket rather than simply rolling it into his passive?
It just seems to be a bit strange that he has parts of his kit gated by the amount of kills he gets, and now that he's a bruiser and expected to be put in riskier situation and not able to secure kills as well, it seems to actually run contrary to his play-style.
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