Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SlumlordThanatos

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furi Kuri II View Post
You should take a logic class, you literally have no argument. You used a fallacy, appealing to authority to justify why Rengar is good.
For starters, I said Rengar wasn't bad, not that he was good.

Second, lemme point out something about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by yourlogicalfallacyis.com
Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence.
You're absolutely right, I'm not perfect and Scruffy may actually be wrong. But, do we know he is wrong for certain? No, we don't have enough evidence. It's been two days, which isn't enough time to gather our own evidence. You also don't have Scruffy's expertise, he's the one who actually works for Riot, so dismissing his claims without sufficient evidence to back it up is a faulty argument.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Point is, we don't know whether or not Scruffy is wrong in this matter or not, because people are stuck behind the mindset of "he changed it, now it sucks", without giving it time to work.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CaptainWinget

Junior Member

04-04-2014

[QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Jag View Post
We have definitely shifted the time-to-kill window for Rengar's assassinations more into the fighter end of the spectrum (closer to Jax than Zed, for example). He's not going to kill someone in 1-2 seconds, yes, but his damage over 4-5 seconds should be comparable to or better than the previous version while also having stronger tank stats and better stickiness
While I understand the frustration of being instantly killed by somebody in two seconds which was the whole reason to fear a Rengar, I feel as if the enemy now has too much time to react to Rengar even if they are alone. As Rengar I would go behind enemy lines and surprise people by appearing in their own jungle, which I took the time to ward up for future hunting. Now I am too afraid to hunt a target that is farming in a lane alone, because before I attack they know I am coming and it takes a long time for me to kill them before I can begin running from the enemy team that have begun to collapse upon me. Oh and if I miss that bola... oh boy am I in trouble. I thought that Rengar was designed to punish players who refused to work as a team and not stick together, which riot has used as a description of Rengar's strengths. Ok, now for the damage, if I am to do the damage of a Jax who does if I may remind you has an attack speed build up, why is it that I feel as if I scale worse than him into the late game? My cc is now unreliable, blocked by a minion or I just miss which should be punished. Jax has a reliable jump allowing him to jump to friendly champions or wards for escape,and enemies for kills. Riot am I a champion who likes duels, or am I a team fighter? The way E is made seems as if I should be a duelist because it is almost impossible to land that thing onto a squishy that is positioned in the back so unless I want to focus my damage on a tank.... I don't see the team fight potential. Now my W tells me I am a team fighter who should be jumping into the fray of a team fight roaring for armor buffs and then proceeding to wail upon the squishies.... again I just get blown up because either I have built all damage to deal damage or gone tanky in which case I cant dish out enough before going down. Now this brings me to the point where I ask why pick Rengar? Honestly, I am only picking him every game because maybe I am building the wrong way? I honestly do not know I have run tank, bruiser, and assassin. I have built like a Renekton to deal no damage, a Jax to get out-dueled, and old Rengar in which the only times I have seen success is when I fight a incompetent enemy in lane who I normally would have killed for making such a fatal mistake, but now he is forgiven after I take about 1/4th of his health. If I make that same mistake... I am dead. If I go even as Rengar I lost, if I am behind I have obviously lost, if I win my lane really hard.. good job I think I can sort of do my job.

Quote:
It's true that his early lane has more weaknesses than his previous iteration. We shifted some of his power away from his Level 2 cheese and spammy E-harass, but added some back in sustained trades, healing when he's behind in lane, and assistance for jungle ganks. One thing I'm curious on here is what is an assassin's idea of winning lane, especially in the top lane. When we see assassin's top lane they're generally more than happy to be able to farm against bruisers.
Ok, to address this I have to discuss old rengar, his "level 2 cheese" and "spammy E-harass" these two mechanics allowed him to survive and prosper against characters that would otherwise walk all over him or just out-sustain and eventually out-scale him.

Nasus (farm lane) is weak early game, ok so I can kill him if he makes a mistake that is fatal (which doesn't happen at all after level 6), otherwise and the more appropriate way to play is keep him off cs, hit him every time he steps up to q. Freeze lane in the middle and just last hit, bola him if he gets close but if he gets too close burst him to half health to make him understand he is going to struggle to get to his late game god form. Now he could always ask for a gank something which could be very potent for Rengar as he does not have a lot of mobility outside of a brush. This is a fair trade off in my opinion, you want to stop Nasus from farming, then you open yourself up to ganks. Nasus still got to his late game with this play-style still, but it will take him longer. Now, I can't poke him with a bola.. so he free farms behind minions, that is a problem if I want to q him I can out-trade him but I am not bursty enough and he will just gain the health all back and by level 8 out-damage and out-tank me every time leaving me to watch him cs. This leaves me with the only way to out-trade being to run up battle roar and run away which is incredibly risky and does almost no damage. The damage it does will now just get healed back and eventually I have to ask my midlaner to take lane because he has built so much armor I cant burst through any of it and I am too weak to tank his farmed q.

Against a Jax (or any scaling bruiser), I do not even know what to do normally I would E-harass when possible, jump him when he is low and run when he activates his stun then turn around and burst him. A lot of effort on my part because he out-trades me. Now, I cant E-harass and I cant out-trade him with my q so that leaves me with battle roar and god help me he doesn't decide to jump on me and kill me. Eventually he will out-scale me and then become an unstoppable split pushing problem all game.

Against a Renekton (tank), I had to E-harass and hit and run him. Eventually once enough health was down I could finish him off with my Q which normally was when he was down to about 1/3 of his health. I could only do this by keeping a health advantage in lane by my E-harass and I had to work fast because Renekton does have life steal on his Q and the overall damage he could dish out on me was higher than mine because it was consistent as he kept me stunned. Now I can't hit and run I have to rely on bushes to land auto attacks which just get life stealed back up. My Q doesn't land when I pounce on him unless I stand there for a second in which case he will stun me, Q, and then dash away. Half the time, my Q never hit because I got stunned before I could do anything, I am now half health and asking my jungler to take lane.

Riot, do I scale off items, kills, or time? Old Rengar worked by creating a level disadvantage in lane made only available by a health disadvantage from continuous E-harass backed by a bursty Q if they wanted to life steal everything back. I do see that I am stronger late game when I am behind, but I have yet to see how to get ahead reliably unless the enemy is just really inexperienced. In the few games I went ahead 11/1/5 I still felt weaker than old Rengar if he was 2/0/0. Thus, I do not believe he scales off kills anymore and as for items I feel as if Jax just does my job better. To be entirely honest I do not what job is now, as I can't find a whole lot I can still do, and the few things I can find are done better by other champions.

Quote:
If you feel like his pushing power is excessively weak I think that may be a fair criticism. We'd like to keep an eye on his overall power level since he has a lot of other really strong tools to aid in tower pushing (e.g. using an Empowered Q on a nearby minion for a strong AS bonus, the ult giving a good escape, etc.).
His tower pushing, what a Rengar that was behind would resort to. Ok, well I am a Rengar main, sorry if I irritate you guys, but this was dumb. Old rengar's tower pushing while strategic and used to deter enemies from ever going on the offensive was too strong and I agree with riot 100%. BUT what I refer to is him running up to an inhibitor or turret in stealth, jumping out and then instantly destroying it. Anybody that does not think that is OP or toxic... I don't know what to tell you, you have to be fair. As for feedback on this, ummmm well it was really over-nerfed and in the few cases where I somehow managed to kill the enemy laner, I have found it more meaningful to allow the turret to just kill my creeps and go back and buy rather than get a few hits on the turret, just because my damage before level 10 on a turret is just too low to risk going up to hit it (referring to jungler trapping me between himself and turret) and when I get in the circumstance I am to unconfident to duel the jungler due my damage reduction. The burst while used for offense, I used it for defense too to deter people from hurting me. Now, I can't dish out enough damage to deter anybody from that, and because of the damage old rengar did, in a teamfight I am immediately focused, hit with cc and killed. Now instead of bringing down somebody with me, I just absorb damage and die, that isn't rewarding and I could play Renekton or Shyvana and survive. As for late game tower pushing, setting myself up with an empowered Q that has to be built up off minions for an attack speed bonus is a little ridiculous as it requires so much planning and even still the Q doesn't do any damage to the turret.

Quote:
We want him to be in a state where he can still build to be a damage threat. If that's not true, then it's something we'll address.
THIS 100%, while I appreciate the change to his abilities, I find myself too weakened by being bullied in my laning phase that I can't get the items to do damage that a Rengar with a couple items could do. Even with the items my damage is so spread out that I can't kill somebody fast enough before they decide to leave, which means I have to sacrifice damage for a chance at keeping them there with an Empowered bola. I can't dive into a teamfight due to an item deficiency and that turns me into building tanky so I can play bola bodyguard peeler for my adc. I really find this boring and can do this better as anybody else and not have to suffer a bad lane phase. To me, Rengar running around love-suiciding an ADC who was in a teamfight, that was earned by a well played lane phase. If you did bad or broke even in that lane phase you could only pull that off reliably by killing her if she was alone. A flash or anything removed that idea unless you went in with an empowered bola. Now empowered bola is interesting because I find myself choosing it all the time despite how unreliable it is. Big problem with it is this, you jump on the target and you are now on top of the target so you can't effectively throw a bola without it going through the target. That kind of ruins the point and just hurts really bad. In the rare cases where I choose double Q, (which is never in a teamfight I have learned that I will get kited and CC and the best I can do is CC one target in a teamfight), it is when I have gone in on a squishy that has made a big mistake by choosing to farm alone without any vision and even then I have to land a perfect bola or my prey escapes because I have to run from her teammates collapsing on me as I can't burst. Honestly, I know the stealth is such a big proponent of what makes Rengar the character he is, but a stealth tank does not make much sense and his damage would be too low as it scales with assassin items. Problem is its no longer bursty so the build of an assassin now cant do enough damage to be justifiable before you get taken down yourself. Heck I would be willing to play Rengar with his old Q and no ultimate because I would feel I could do my job better. Stealth is such a problem, fine take it because right now it so useless I would rather have Jax's ult coupled with a gap closer.

NEW SECTION: problems the rework caused in lane (sorry Rengar to me is a laner 1st, not a jungler)
Q

-Ummm damage is not enough to trade with especially at level 1, yet upgrading Q is the only skill that gives cooldown reduction and wow the time it takes to perform it without attack speed is incredibly slow

-It doesn't hit unless I jump out of bush and stop moving to let it hit

-So incredibly lackluster until late game and by then I have such a large item deficiency that I can't reliable scale to eventually do enough damage for the sacrifice of few tank items, I do not scale like Vayne or Jax and yet I can't reliably be a lane bully anymore for an early start where is my power spike? If it is late game than my scaling has to be higher because I just can't survive long enough to see it.

W

-great for teamfights, but I still get CC and just absorb a bunch of damage, I though I was an assassin not a damage sponge

-in lane it is actually a nerf because you are hitting one single person with it

Overall I do not know it is isn't bad it just adds to the confusion of me being a team fighter with an unreliable single target CC ability

E
-Ummm, wow, huge nerf to laning phase due to sheer unreliability, not to mention did the damage get reduced or is that just me?

-Great chasing tool and good concept, but it really needed to get tested more, its way to dicey to put all your ferocity into the chance of landing it

-Have yet to notice a difference in move speed toward a bola'd target, I don't know if this was implemented, riot discussed it a lot but it wasn't in the patch notes so again I am unsure

R
-the way Q works now MS is mandatory after stealth but such low MS in stealth makes jumping on someone really hard especially because it takes time to set up for a single target assassination and most ADC's I fight do not farm in one lane for a long enough time late game

-the exclamation mark I personally hate it, but I guess I can get used to it, I just do not see how its necessary when my burst damage has been reduced so much that the reaction time allowed for my opponent should be during my consistent damage output; not preparation before

-I am actually using it even more as an escape tool because my damage feels so puny and my mobility outside of a bush is really low which makes the MS nerf during it incredibly frustrating

-Am I supposed to save my abilities up until all ferocity has been generated? Reason I ask is because we are limited to a bar of 5 ferocity and the ult gives me five, I will not reap the full benefits unless I move in with no ferocity or full ferocity and quickly get off an empowered attack before ferocity generation

-If I am too dive into a team fight like a Jax I need some counter CC ability, Jax's counter-strike practically makes him untargetable



Anyways this is based upon my experiences of watching people play and trying numerous build and play-styles. I have yet to find one that works and am hoping the community comes up with some new, fun way to play him besides unreliable ADC peeler. I feel as if every thing Rengar was good at, got taken away. The only two reasons to pick him was to scale off kills or deny cs and then transition to instantly remove people off the rift that did not play smart; or to split-push like a Jax, unlike Jax if people came up you generally would not kill them you would just run. Personally, I find an unstoppable Jax much more toxic than a slippery Rengar. Lastly for those wondering why I make so many references to Jax, it is because I assume new Rengar is a bruiser hyper-carry that is supposed to dive into the fray of battle as Jax does so efficiently.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

24 7 Dubstep

Senior Member

04-04-2014

G FKING G. First clear pushed back by 23 seconds. lmfao. Im currently plat 3, got stomped by all top laners top and every team I've had so far tells me to stop playing rengar and stick to the meta. GOOD GAME RIOT SCRUFFY, PIECE OF SHET


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lyanna Stark

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Rengar, Xerath, Skarner, and pretty much every recently reworked champion got an enormous thread collecting feedback before and after release along with in-depth discussions with Rioters, sometimes even before work on the rework began. Hell, I remember with Xerath you guys even polled the biggest Xerath players for thoughts on him.

So what about Gragas? He got a small thread hidden away in the community beta with the Rioter in charge barely communicating at all at any stage. The changes were already made and set in stone before collecting feedback.

As a Gragas main for ~15 months, I feel not only incredibly sad about the rework itself, but also ignored.

I'm sorry for going wayyyyyyyyy off-topic here (especially since it probably has nothing to do with you), but I just had to get that out. I won't say anything more.

EDIT: Man there's a lot of negativity in this thread. Now I feel a little bad for contributing to it. :P

Let's all get happy! Yay! <-- Like that!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SaraIsLiz

Member

04-04-2014

You're a fuc king re tard. Quit pretending like you balanced him. You know you don't know what the fu ck you are doing. These are just NERFS!!!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Spicy

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Rengar's ult indicator should be global, but only granted if he ults in vision.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Omega Painus

Junior Member

04-04-2014

Why even play Rengar now when tryndamere exists?

Roughly same split pushing power as old rengar
Same escape power
Same sustain
Better scaling


But now here's the big difference, when you force tryn to fight, he can ACTUALLY fight back.
Rengar can't do anything but try to ult and run away, but if they reveal stealth, well lol too bad for you. You barely tickle anyone anymore cat.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fonis

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
There are a few people suggesting that the warning from his ult should be global. We thought about this idea actually but it was actually too punishing for Rengar because it gave his opponents too much time to react, and essentially removed all of his ganking power. Enemies would all just back up to their tower before he could engage, so we went with a much shorter warning time frame.

I'm much more keen on the idea that if he wouldn't be visible, the warning will not appear. This rewards clever paths and approaches when ulting.
Allow me to introduce myself first, my IGN is DdC ThanatoZ, I was D1 season 3, diamond 3 in this season(haven't played that much) and I'm a Rengar main, I have played him since his first PBE release(around July 2012) and I have around 2.5 - 3k games with him spread through several accounts that range from gold to diamond, I had around 300 ranked games with him in s2, 900 in s3 and almost 100 this season before the rework on my main account, I will try to be as constructive as possible considering the amount and degree of bad decisions that you and Scarizard made throughout the entire rework process and the fact that I'm kind of angry. Let's begin:

-The Q, not only it feels really clunky and buggy with the delay between double cast, the no casting right after a leap and the fact that it doesn't work on turrets anymore. This skill feels really nerfed, the early dmg is pretty much non existent and you don't get the AS bonus to get the upper hand in trades, the empowered Q feels lackluster too and again the fact that it doesn't work on turrets is kind of annoying.

-The W, kind of a decent change but is a straight up nerf, let me explain, for the top lane that armor and mr that you get now since you are on a 1 on 1 situation is lower, in the jungle too, is a buff for tankgar but he is still lackluster in that role too(I'll elaborate on that later in the post)

-The E is one of your worse decisions in the rework(yours and Scarizard), completely killed top Rengar and is nothing worth of amazement in the jungle, if you miss the emp E not only you failed on providing your only cc to the gank but also you don't have any damage or utility tool to follow up, no champion in the jungle gets punished as hard except for a few but they more than make up for that by either bringing a really strong cc in the form of an ultimate but also most of them are really really tanky, examples, amumu - you miss bandage you can walk up and use ult and your bandage will probably be up again since it doesn't have such a long cd, sejuani - your Q, if you miss it it is still a gap closer and you also have that strong ultimate in terms on cc which you can follow up with your E for a massive slow, nautilus - if you miss the Q you are not punished as hard since you have a point and click ultimate which provides decent amount of cc, lee sin- if u miss Q you can ward jump and slow them with cripple and I can keep going on, of course this situations are just for the sake of argument, like i mentioned they have other tools to give cc and dmg but in this case Rengar doesn't, the emp E is his emtire contribution to a gank, you have no follow up, true it can be decent if you hit it but then again if you manage to pull a gank with him you woulda have got a gank three times better with other jungler, on the top lane, E is pointless except for getting 1 ferocity point, forget trying to poke a champion wit it not only it gets blocked but the dmg in not empowered state is laughable.

-R, the fact that it doesn't give you ms and you don't stack ferocity anymore means that you need to have 5 ferocity stacks ready to be able to even try to do something or else you are just a worse version of Master Yi, both can be cc'd but Master Yi is invulnerable to slows which Rengar isn't, I know your excuse for the ult not granting ms anymore is the fact that the necklace gives you ms with stacks but I will talk about that in the next point, about the warning, is completely unnecessary, if you compare him to other stealth champions none of them give you a warning that they are on you, to make things even worse, these stealths skills are 1 passive and a bunch of Qs, Rengar's is an ultimate which makes things even worse, an ultimate should be like its name says, your ultimate ability, the ability that opens the most possibilities for your champions, in the comparisons we got twitch, his Q not only lasts more, gives you ms, gives you a huge amount of AS, has a 10 sec cd or less but twitch has a lot more burst potential than Rengar since he most of the time gets items like IE, BotrK, PD and expunge nuke is really strong, shaco's stealth is his Q, grants him 100% crit, has like an 8 sec cd but also your only warning is a puff of smoke which most of the times you don't even see in the FoW, the japanese shaco skin makes things worse since the smoke is grey instead of orange so good luck seeing it in the FoW, now you would bring the argument of eve giving you a warning but surprise surprise it doesn't, why do I say this? because as soon as she is in the border of the circle which allows you to detect her, she just pops her W for a MASSIVE ms bonus, also her R is a massive slow and if she hits you with a Q E or AA she still gets the passive part of her W which makes her gap closer and sticking potential even greater than Rengar's and she is stealthed the whole time. I'm not mad about the warning because is a warning but because is a warning on an ultimate when normal abilities less punishing when used(a lot less cd) have none.

-The necklace, dear God the necklace, where to begin, oh I know, remember how in one of the posts before of the rework even came to PBe if I recall correctly, you guys said that you wanted people to actually make a decision about when or if you should get the necklace at all in a game, good thing you made it a trinket or nobody would buy it, is true that the old necklace was a bit cost efficient it honestly the real power was on the bonuses, to compare would be like sitting on a BF Sword while having the chance of getting a Bt, IE or Mercurial and your enemy had 200 armor, if you bought the necklace too early because you thought you were gonna snowball but then turns out you didn't it just ended up as paperweight in your inventory, the moment when a player bought the necklace differentiated the good Rengar players from the best, we would buy the necklace right at the moment when we knew there was gonna be a skirmish, a big teamfight or just if we were roaming a lot so we would get the 3 and 6 stack effects instantly. The bonuses of the new necklace are honestly a joke, you only pretty much get MS which doesn't make you a better duelist or tank or bruiser or assasin or w/e the role you think he is, I know you use this as excuse for the nerf on MS on ultimate since the last 2 bonuses are focused entirely on it but it is all worthless if you don't have the dmg to kill someone or the tankiness to even be a meatshield, a lot of your posts and the other unknown rioter Jag I think is his name mention that he has better stickiness now, that's just a lie, let me introduce you to popular marksmen with a lot of tools to kite you themselves, Draven(E), Caitlyn(E), Jinx(W,E), Ezreal(E), Lucian(E), Graves(E), Ashe(R,Q,W) stuns you as soon as you jump and kills you, good luck getting that Quinn(Q,E) now and other marksmen that I'm too lazy to look up right now. Honestly these bonuses are icing on a **** cake.

Overall Rengar used to be a niche pick, a champion with whom you could bypass front lines and get to that priority target if you played your cards right, sometimes you had a hard time against those bully laners like renekton, shyvanna but you had your E to either poke them down since you couldn't get close or just farm and get to that mid/late game status and delete people, you were and still are really vulnerable to ganks so you didn't win anything in that aspect as a Rengar player, you still have the same ultility in case of an ally gank but with less dmg.
I also remember how you guys mentioned that you wanted the Rengar player to actually make a decision in which ferocity ability to use at 5 stacks and now the only way to actually leave lane alive is maxing W and just spamming it in normal cd and using emp Q but since the W is now weaker in 1 on 1 situations, the hard matchups that you had before, beat the **** out of you, skill matchups that could go 50-50 now beat the **** out of you, and matchups that you used to straight up win now are 50-50, you gutted his already weak early game in exchange of a weaker late game too.

Another piece of information that you and Scarizard don't or didn't know because you don't play Rengar at all(a few months back Scarizard who was in charge, was diamond 3 last season with only 13 Rengar games, how is that even possible when you are in charge of a rework like that) the "lv 2 cheese" as you call it, got nerfed super hard when the jungle timers were pushed back, what made this lv 2 all in so strong was not the damage itself but the timing, when small camps spawned at 1:40, Rengar would go to lane already with 3 ferocity stacks if he started Q or E didn't matter, he would use that skill once again in lane to add up to 4 stacks and then as soon as he hit lv 2 he would all in you, sometimes even lv 1 if he started Q and you were a schmuck and let him hit you, but since the timers were nerfed he only came to lane with 1 stack and even though the damage was kind of still in there other top laners could push you up, poke you and you would still lose the lv 2 all in(e.g Renek) so you had to actually play the matchups carefully, now like I said you have to max W to get out of laning phase even, if not, feeding.

This part is a little bit of a rant but it has a lot of information so please read it, like I said I have a lot of Rengar games spread through seevral accounts in different servers and elos, like 2 weeks ago I had 4 bad days and I tanked a lot of lp so I decided to stop playing on my main for a bit to cool off because I was on tilt so I went to smurf to relax, I played on an acc that was bronze atm if I recall correctly ofc I didn't only play Rengar but I played a lot of different champions from Rengar to Lee Sin to Veigar and many others so you get an idea, what I could see is that people down in those leagues don't build deffensive items out of 10 games, only 2 contained GAs, those 2 games were past the 55 minute mark and the GAs were bought around 45 50 min mark for both teams, 4 or 5 out of those 10 games had zhonyas in which 3 of those games had them really delayed because the people playing didn't want to alter their build, like I said this wasn't only the case in my Rengar games but on several other champions with decent/strong burst who I got fed with, based on the fact that the complains come mostly from this area of the elo ladder, I would say that this players have no right to complain, sure smurfing is kind of a scumbag move but when players refuse to learn and just cry about everything I just get dissapointed. I hate myself for bringing this up but this next argument helps to my point, do you know why DotA players like their game more than LoL and why the supporters use this same argument in the discussion? The argument is that the skill floor is a lot higher than LoL which sadly is true for the most part, every hero in DotA would be seen as imbalanced on LoL e.g 7 second supress on Athropos? 14s to perma silence coming from Doombringer ult if he stays close to you? a 1.5 second bash on barathrum(Spirit walker) which is affected by RNG and AS, true that it may seem imbalanced but that's the beauty of it, I for once would like to go to Bronze-Plat and see people actually adapting to the rhythm of the game instead of just keep building what they think should be built not what is right to build in that situation, I would love for Riot to stop spoiling the players, these players complain a ton and since you deliver the nerf hammer instead of encouraging them to learn how to play they just whine when something else they don't like arises, yours and Scarizard's favorite excuse is the lack of counterplay, at the time I did my post on the Scarizard threat I put numbers, if he lacked counterplay, Rengar wouldn't lose in Ranked or would have been 100% pick ban but at the time he had a 47-48% win rate and his pick rate was below 8% if I recall correctly, the counterplay measures I mentioned were, pink wards(this was before vision changes but still applies, there can be up to 5 pinks in the map and a couple of oracle lenses), defensive items like GA, Randuins, Zhonyas, Warmogs, Spectral wraiths would also reveal Rengar and slow him, another that most people seem to skip is aggresive wards, is true that most of Rengar's threat comes from stealth but he is in fact visible most of the time, so good kind of aggresive wards can spot him at the point where he starts ulting.

Rengar before this rework was fine, it actually required skill to pull off the triple Q and also required skill to actually be a good Rengar player, know the matchups, know how to survive lane phase, know how to play teamfights with your poor teamfighting capabilities etc, the best measure right now to fix him would be revert the rework since like i mentioned, the Q is paperweight, same with the E, the W is kinda decent but in 1 v 1 situations is bad, and the fact that you can't snowball at all when other asassins/tanks can is awful.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Notalent

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-04-2014

The problem with the Rengar rework...and may other reworks is that it breaks a niche and replaces it with nothing. It moves a character who had a defined role and a defined capability into the role of generic median champ who isn't terribly effective at anything.

Rengar was a stealthy high burst assassin who was also a strong split pusher, was a terrible bruiser, and had one of the weakest cc's in the game unless it was empowered (which nerfed his burst).

Now Rengar is a mediocre bruiser with mediocre pushing, mediocre burst, slightly above average but unreliable cc, and mediocre assassination power.

In short, Rengar excels at nothing and has no real niche. Rengar is the best champion for exactly...nothing.

The Xerath rework was mostly popular because it was set up to emphasize his role, Long Range poke/siege power. The Rengar rework is unpopular because it strips him of his role and leaves him with no new one. Rengar as he is now will never be a better choice then Jax or Lee Sin for a melee dps role. He will never be better than Shaco or Eve as a stealth assassin role. He will never be better than Shyvana or Renekton as a bruiser/initiator role. So what good is he? He isn't any good.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

24 7 Dubstep

Senior Member

04-04-2014

In all honesty.

If riot came out saying, we want rengar to be a split between a tank and an assassin, then nobody would be arguing.

The problem is, you can't have a champion that is mediocre and in-between two roles to ever be good.

Everyone wants and feels that quote on quote "pridestalker" shouldn't be a tank. WHy? because his champ design was made so that he is quote on quote "a true hunter".

What do you think guys. Should riot just tell everyone to stop thinking rengar is still an assassin and tell everyone to build him tank?