Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

First Riot Post
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Hawkefire

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Now then: On to his other skills.


His Q changes:

Not Effecting Towers: Frankly, it feels weak now and less intuitive than before. It also doesn't help that it is bugged but that will obviously be fixed soon. I also still don't understand why Rengar's splitpushing was ENTIRELY destroyed when other champions that were just as strong (IF NOT STRONGER) than Rengar at splitpushing. I do understand the want to throttle back its splitpushing power (because come late game Rengar does become scary as a splitpusher), but I don't understand why it should be removed completely. Not only that, by removing it completely you removed part of what made Rengar...Rengar. It was part of his identity, and many of his mains loved that aspect to his kit. My proposal would be to return the Q to be allowed to damage towers, but instead it deals half damage to towers. This way his splitpush is better than average, but not overwhelmingly strong as it used to be when Rengar was building to split.

Let us look at his standard Q's damage: It feels very weak early on, and Rengar's early game wasn't the best before either. Either its base damage should be buffed, or the attack speed should be given back, because the Q changes effectively mean that in-lane Rengar will lose trades, and jungle Rengar will have slow clear times (and indeed, his clear times went from passable, to very very poor)

Now let us examine the change to his empowered Q, namely the attack speed change: Honestly the scaling per level instead of per rank is...odd. Why the change? I still don't understand the reasoning behind that. In fact, why in the world are all the empowered abilities scaling per level instead of per rank. I honestly STRONGLY dislike that change. If I am maxing my Q I want my empowered Q to have stronger effects. If I am maxing my W I want my empowered W to have stronger effects. If I am maxing....you get the point.

Now let us look at his E.


I love that it is a skillshot now personally, but that is because I dislike most of the targeted non-skillshot abilities of similar nature and purpose.

Damage Reduced: Why in the world would you reduce the damage on it early on. That just felt unneeded. The damage should have remained the same as it is Lane-Rengars only form of harras. Not only that, but it doesn't feel that rewarding to land the skillshot while you are in the laning phase, and believe me...it isn't an easy skillshot to land either. I can understand the empowered having reduced damage early on due to its root, but the reward for landing that skillshot could be buffed a little bit more too.


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SooFr0sty

Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lore Master View Post
i'm gunna go out on a limb and say Rengar's ult altering people is fine .. HOWEVER, the range of the indication is too small. Based on the laning phase, if i'm jungling as Rengar and someone gets my ult warning ... thye know i'm coming for their lane.....

Make it global, like Nocturne or TF ...
Make EVERYONE on the map wonder "Is he coming for me?"

There's power AND terror in that while still offering counter play.
This should happen


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Love and Peace

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lore Master View Post
i'm gunna go out on a limb and say Rengar's ult altering people is fine .. HOWEVER, the range of the indication is too small. Based on the laning phase, if i'm jungling as Rengar and someone gets my ult warning ... thye know i'm coming for their lane.....

Make it global, like Nocturne or TF ...
Make EVERYONE on the map wonder "Is he coming for me?"

There's power AND terror in that while still offering counter play.
expect nocturne and twisted fate teleport to there destination/gap close also bot of thesse have other utilties like true vision and vision denial


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BattleCruiser55

Senior Member

04-03-2014

I really hate his new Q. You reduced the damage on his Q until like 250 ad at max rank, at which point it breaks even with the older one, and you removed the attack speed on the regular Q, and then you also make it unable to hit turrets. Furthermore, there seems to be a very noticeable delay when casting his Qs. Also regarding his ult, I feel 1000 range is too long of a detection radius, or there has to be some kind of mechanic around it. Maybe reduce it to 800 range. I've played Rengar probably a hundred times in normals and after playing a game with him, he seems much weaker. I'll continue to try and play my favorite knifecat, but he just doesn't stack up with the competition right now.


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Sir Puffy

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowMixWarrior View Post
I don't want to come off sounding like a jerk but if I can be candid with you (Riot) I would have thought you had enough experience with rework disasters.

The primary complaint behind Skarner and Karma was that their core identity was changed. When Lee Sin was about to be put on the block for an identity change the entire community (Pro players, commentators, Diamond 1, unranked, etc) spoke out against that sort of change. I understand old Rengar was abusive and should have never been released in the state that he was (Manaless, point click ranged harass, healing/armor/mr buff, invis, and gap closer) but yet again you have managed to take away what made Rengar Rengar.

His identity has been changed and after the Skarner incident I thought you (Riot) would have finally learned that slapping counter play on top of counter play to remove toxic elements makes for a bland champion.

Partially the reason why you were met with such negativity was because the core issue behind Skarner hasn't been fixed and you did to him like you did to Karma which was number buffing (in the case of Karma a slight change to W but other than that number buffs).

I guess what I'm trying to get at is does a champion need to have a following as large as Lee Sin to prevent them from having their fundamental identity changed?
This man knows what's up.

Apparently if a champion doesn't have a playerbase as big as Lee Sin and other popular champs like him, it's f*cking alright to trash them because the outcry won't be as huge.


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Canstainer

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsetron View Post
Ah-ah-aaaa

I have to tell you something about Rengar though Jag

"Prey on the weak and you will survive, prey on the strong and you will live."

Rengar isn't a passive farmer. He's a Hunter, a Predator, and a Killer.

Rengar wants to fight the good fight, punch peoples ****ake mushrooms in, then take trophies.
I'm not happy about a lot of the changes, but as I don't have any power, I only hope that you don't go down a Crystalline path but instead see how much of a BADDASS that the Pridestalker is.

They should be warding bushes
They should be keeping a peeler in the back line
They should be ready, and they should be afraid if they're strong

Because he hunts the strong. And He lives for it.
True


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Spexify

Senior Member

04-03-2014

I really don't like how he scales based upon champion level instead of maxing rank. This really dwarfs his power or his power to get ahead . How does one carry with him if he can't snowball. Darius can do his job way better and one shot carries and thensome.

Rengar- Q needs more damage or scaling with damaage items.
Rengar - Needs the ability to siege turrets why can Jax-Yi-Morde-Nasus blow up turrets but he can't?
Rengar - Needs to be able to duel khazix safely in the jungle. Khazix is substantially bettter than him in the jungle and can be dominated by khazix 1v1 in the jungle. The hunt is on should be optional to Rengar not forced upon him to increase Khazix's snowball potential.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

04-03-2014

not sure why people are raging over the changes... They were overwhelmingly clear during this long drawn out process, and restated it many many times, that Rengars ability to "assassinate" targets in a single burst was going away. That means Rengar will no longer be an effective assassin, he was never intended to be an assassin but to be a fighter mixing it up in the fray. If that is not the style of champ you like to play then Id have to say time to find a new champ that fits your play style.


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Reign of Miasma

Junior Member

04-03-2014

I like the current changes with both his ults interactivity and the removal of a targeted free harass. However, I think it would be great if his ult only gave him away while he's moving. I think it would open up a lot of mind games while still allowing for a reaction when he goes in. It also feels more predatory. Mrwawh.


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Vaire

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanru View Post
Rengar feels like trash. I actively feel bad for playing him.

There are a few things in this thread that I've read that I don't think people understand.

His Ult is better in the ferocity generation department, I don't think that people understand how much weaker Ren would be if he had his old ult generation in his current state, he'd be significantly worse, even the move speed out of ult is a pretty good addition. Everything else that was changed/added to his ult is garbage.

-I have an ult on a 2 minute cd, I shouldn't give a freaking warning to everyone in the area that I'm about to get into range to jump on you, it's not that I'm already in range, I'm outside of my actual jump range, it's stupid. I ulted to chase down an MF, she saw the warning and bolted, with nothing but her passive she stayed outside of my leap range, I had the extra mobi boots passive on my bonetooth and I still couldn't catch her.

-Combined with the fact that now I show up at the beginning of my leap it makes it difficult to actually do anything. With the warning, the jump change, and the stupid Q bug they have an extra 2~3 seconds to react before I can actually deal damage, wtf is that? On top of the fact that it takes an extra 2~3 seconds to actually complete my combo. With the fact that it takes 4~6 to burst people, the fact that you made said burst more unreliable, and the fact that you lowered his immediate burst essentially means that Rengar doesn't actually have burst anymore. Lets not even get into the delay you added between emp abilities and normal abilities, which tacks on an extra .5 seconds or so.

-So he's now a bruiser, unfortunately Rengar has neither the bases nor the utility to be a bruiser, so he can't do that either. So he's left with a tank role, but he still has no utility so he can't do that either. Wtf do you do with Rengar?

-W is actively worse in almost every scenario outside of a teamfight or small skirmishes, both of which are scenarios Rengar sucks in. At max rank you get an extra 2(yes 2) armor and mr over old W against a single, but you heal less in most scenarios unless you're almost dead. It still sucks ass in the jungle too.

-Q feels like trash, it's your best means of generating ferocity, so you have to max it, but it's clunky and slow. It makes his jungle significantly more painful and slow, his base hp and hp/5 are still trash, you end up almost dead after your first clear, and it pretty much stays that way until you get a completed jungle item, even then getting lizard does nothing for you because your single target deeps are slow as balls and your aoe damage is nonexistant. You don't actually clear fast enough to make good use of wriggles/feral flare either, but that's pretty much his best item.

-E. I dunno what to say about E. As Ren is now it's pretty much his lifeline. When you ult you need to lead with emp E to actually do damage. E however is slow, narrow, and too easy to miss, you miss E and you won't be able to keep your target close enough to you to actually do damage, and given the way his ult works, it's difficult to actually get to a target and when you do you're literally right on top of them, so you have to shuffle around to make sure your E won't just fly off. And you have to make sure your target is far enough away from any impeding obstacles so you don't hit the wrong target(so you want the target isolated so you don't miss E, if you miss E you aren't doing damage, but having an isolated target means you aren't really benefiting from W buffs, so at the end of the day it was pointless ironically). Only issue is that everyone else is gonna be shuffling around too(on top of the previous mentioned issue), and the support spends half their life on top of the carry, so hitting E is a pain in the ass. Sadly E got the best lot out of these changes

As it stands Rengar has no strengths, no goal, and he actively feels bad to play, there's nothing satisfying in his kit. You say old Rengar was too binary, but he's even worse now. At least before he could build assassin, kill the squishy and die or die trying, or splitpush, or he could build tank not be a damage or cc threat in TF's but be able to splitpush. Now he can't build assassin, and he can't splitpush. You pretty much removed one of the two options he had as a build path, and completely removed the only utility he had in the other.


-There's 0 reason for Q to not have attacks speed, you lowered the damage on Emp Q and double Q's burst, and made it so that neither interact with towers. Old Q and new Q even out thanks to the effective permanent 50% attack speed buff the former gave, so you can't actually say the damage went up.

-Rengar has no escape or general utility as a champ, he does nothing productive.

-Why the hell does he have a global cd between emp and normal abilities?

-Bump up the static move speed buff during stealth to 20% or so, so I can actually catch people, I can't use it to run away because the move speed buff only applies when chasing a champ, and they'll always know I'm in the area so I can't actually just stealth and sit still to juke anymore either. Or remove the goddamned warning.

-Fix E so that it'll be able to hit a target I'm right on top of

-Remake Rengar from the ground up, because you guys fail at trying to fix **** while keeping the general feel, so it comes out half-assed.

- You added so much counterplay to Rengar's kit that he feels like **** to play. His kit isn't complex enough nor does it allow for enough variation for this to work, he's not Zed or Yasuo, his outplay potential is severely limited.
^all of this, you have olaf'd rengar to the point of he feels like **** to play, fix this now!