Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

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Milk Snowbunny

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rengarbage View Post
Hello,
After reading through many comments, ranging from raging to pure insults, I realized that the community is poorly conveying their message, which I will attempt to restate here.
Rengar is no longer viable as an assassin, and he cannot compete in the top lane. Additionally, the changes have also, arguably, weakened his jungle.
I will briefly discuss why I truly believe each of the aforementioned:

-Rengar relied heavily on his Q damage to assassinate, now, saying this with experience, a fed Rengar has trouble assassinating a lower level, squishy support due to the massive damage decrease (Don't even consider non-support champions, or equal level champions).

-As far as the top lane goes, his level 2 "cheese" as some call it does about 1/4 of the other top laner's health on average, which is returned to Rengar multi-fold upon his journey back into the bushes. Other than being unable to have 'bursty' trades in his favor, he also completely lacks a consistent/reliable poke (since the e is now a skill shot). Due to the previous reasons, he can't successfully win a lane other than out farm, which isn't, in my opinion, as assassin's idea of winning lane.

-Concerning the jungle, I believe he is already second-tier or less, however, the attack speed loss on his q makes camps harder to clear (excluding the damage reduction).

Additionally, I would like to add some additonal opinions:
I can understand why his tower killing could be viewed as too strong (although some would argue that it's not since it's an integral part of the champion). Regardless, I believe that changing his q to not work against towers is a valid nerf if you believe his pushing is too strong. However, I believe that by disallowing his q to damage towers, and reducing his damage drastically, the pushing nerf was doubly-applied.
Also, having tried many different builds on my separate accounts after the patch, I have come to believe that Rengar may be viable as a tank, but cannot be viable as an assassin or high damage source of any given team.

Lastly, I would like to make some suggestions of how to go about the current Rengar:
-First, restore his Q damage to what it was before the changes.
-Second, reduce the stun time on his E, elsewise with the Q restored, the 1.75 second stun would be arguably OP.
-Thirdly, if you are to prevent his Q damage from applying to towers, let his Q act as an auto-reset (such as many champions have already).
-Fourthly, (optional) reconsider the E as a skill shot, as having a point click poke is very useful when behind or against "counters."

In all honesty, I appreciate the attempt to adapt Rengar into a new, intriguing champion. But, he has lost what made him spectacular and, as I have gathered from many players, is no longer fun to play. I would prefer if all the changes were reverted, but I must admit a bias, as I do play Rengar.

Thank you for considering the communities opinion.
Rengar is no longer viable... meanwhile...

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CamoClad

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsetron View Post
Ah-ah-aaaa

I have to tell you something about Rengar though Jag

"Prey on the weak and you will survive, prey on the strong and you will live."

Rengar isn't a passive farmer. He's a Hunter, a Predator, and a Killer.

Rengar wants to fight the good fight, punch peoples ****ake mushrooms in, then take trophies.
I'm not happy about a lot of the changes, but as I don't have any power, I only hope that you don't go down a Crystalline path but instead see how much of a BADDASS that the Pridestalker is.

They should be warding bushes
They should be keeping a peeler in the back line
They should be ready, and they should be afraid if they're strong

Because he hunts the strong. And He lives for it.
Okay this idea inspired an idea if Riot wants to keep this crazy Rengar is near indicator. How about instead of a visual indicator, there is an audible indicator? Much like the global notification that is seen when Nocturne taps into it, what if when Rengar activates his ult, his mighty Roar is heard by everyone on the map, friend and foe? Its as if he is issuing a loud challenge to any and all that can hear it, lets everyone know that he is truly on the hunt, and seems to help Rengar players keep the "fantasy" of playing the ultimate hunter. Several champion already have global ults, why can't Rengar have a global audio to his ult?


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October11th

Senior Member

04-03-2014

I am D1 Rengar main, been playing Rengar since its release.

Ive tested the new Rengar on my main and on my alt and on my friend's PBE.

My conclusion is, Rengar has become a regular top tank bruiser like renek / jax.

Reason? These two changes are why.

1) Q attack speed buff is removed, and it no longer attacks towers.
2) R charges ferocities when breaking out of stealth, the movement speed during stealth is reduced,and the it alerts opponents while stealthed. (1000 radius ouch)

Because of R nerf, you can no longer burst as much as before. (Because now you get ferocities over time after unstealting). The burst is not any stronger than Renekton who goes equal build, and Rengar is not as tanky as Renek. So because Rengar's burst is less now, Rengar is forced to stay in fight longer to do dmg. You cannot do this by going full dmg build, so you will have to get some tank items.

This is reinforced by Q nerf. Because of Q's attack speed buff is removed and it no longer targets towers, Rengar's ability to split push has significantly decreased. Precisely speaking, it is no longer effective. Again, this forces Rengar to participate more in teamfite situations.

So in conclusion, overall changes suggest that Rengar should focus in teamfites more with the new changes. And with the new changes, we all know Rengar can no longer burst an enemy down, instead, it's more effective to stay alive longer and do dmg overtime. I dont see how Rengar is different from regular top tank bruisers like Jax and Renekton now. Rengar's role has become like them. Go tanky with one or two dmg items, and be the frontline of the team.

Riot, is this what you aim Rengar to be? Maybe not, but guess what? The new changes makes him that way, because playing him differently makes him less effective now.

***More things you should think about.
1) Rengar's easter egg with Kha is pointless. Rengar gains nothing from winning it.
2) You may not have thought about it, but because you gain R overtime after breaking out of stealth on R, it penalizes Rengar upon death. Just like Shyvana who cant use dragonform right away after death when it's a situation where you have to defend the base, Rengar is less effective in defending base now with ult because you dont do much without max ferocities, and without the previous burst with R.
3) E change is fun, but it simply isnt as effective as you wished it to be. It has way too low return for using max ferocities + risking it to go a waste. In many situations, just using max Q is far far better after following up with normal E. I mean, interesting change, but doesnt really affect the game play as much as you thought it would.

Lastly, I dont mind how you are keep changing Rengar, but I dont like this version, simply because it's boring and because its playstyle doesnt differentiate Rengar from other top tank bruisers. It's really boring, and that shouldnt be the impression I get from a champ I love so much haha. I think many people would agree with me on the 'boring' part.

Riot, it would be really nice for you to clarify your intention for me. Is this what you really aimed for? Again, i am not saying new Rengar is weak. It is strong in teamfites if you go tank items, probably stronger in teamfite situations than before that way. But is this what you aimed for? Did you aim Rengar to become a tank sustain fighter?


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Thats a Bingo

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
In playtests, Rengar was typically building an in-between (with a few players trying out assassin builds), and he was still obliterating ADCs. The 1000 range is an indicator but doesn't actually reveal him, so Rengar should go steamrolling into the fight when he wants to engage, rather than sitting right beside the ADC for a few seconds before blowing them up. Engaging should be a commitment, not just a kitty sitting on the spot for a while.

The Q not working on towers feeling bad might be a truth but do we agree that Rengar's split pushing was absolutely obnoxious without tradeoffs? If not, maybe that's where the conversation should start.
Isn't obliterating ADC's his job? He's an assassin for Christ sake, he's supposed to be able to kill a carry or at least take the carry out of the fight. If you're going to nerf stealth, then fine, at least let him keep his movement speed and ability to detect nearby characters without them noticing him.

Sure, he kills ADC's very fast. But he's only VERY successful when punishing the ADC for poor positioning. If no one is there to peel for the ADC when Rengar jumps in, then the team is doing something wrong.

If you're going to change him, then don't drastically raise his CD's to such absurd heights. His Q does little damage early and doesn't give him any addtional benefits for clearing Jungles.

I've won with the rework Rengar once. But that's only because my lanes won so hard that I only needed to like show up for them to wreck the other team. If one lane was losing, there was probably no way I would be able to help because Rengar's clear time is so slow right now.

As for his split pushing, he can only get away with it if the team was bad at rotating. He could easily get caught out if the team wards properly or pays attention to their lane.

Honestly, I think you guys are hitting stealth champions too hard simply because of the vision changes. I mean, supports get to buy their items now hooray. But at the end of the day, supports will still want to buy wards for the map. Instead of fixing visions items (such as the Red Trinket) or adding different ones, you're just going to nerf stealth champions because it seems so much easier.

I'm almost done ranting. One more thing though Riot. Whatever you do, get CertainlyT or Xypherous to do the reworks and keep RiotScruffy away from them. Yeah, they come up with some absurdly powerful result sometimes. But at least they give their champions power instead of taking everything that made them strong away and replacing it with watered down ****.


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I MonkeyDLuffy I

Junior Member

04-03-2014

Honest to goodness I like new rengar. I build a BotRK and Trinity, then just straight tank(maybe a Blackcleaver as well) but honestly the ultimate alert is not needed at all, and his Q is too slow. It sometimes doesn't proc when jumping out of bush, and it's too slow when just straight scrapping. I've canceled it many times by accident but it really feels unresponsive. But this patch actually killed jungle rengar. He is only viable top.


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im a blisy

Member

04-03-2014

I play him a lot, and I think in general he feels very similar except I have a bit more options, which is chill.

Here's my main problems--

Idk if it's a bug or what, but sometimes my leap won't apply my Q or Empowered Q. It's very frustrating as an assasin for my burst to not work.

Second- W makes the heal sound effect even if you don't heal


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Xanru

Member

04-03-2014

Rengar feels like trash. I actively feel bad for playing him.

There are a few things in this thread that I've read that I don't think people understand.

His Ult is better in the ferocity generation department, I don't think that people understand how much weaker Ren would be if he had his old ult generation in his current state, he'd be significantly worse, even the move speed out of ult is a pretty good addition. Everything else that was changed/added to his ult is garbage.

-I have an ult on a 2 minute cd, I shouldn't give a freaking warning to everyone in the area that I'm about to get into range to jump on you, it's not that I'm already in range, I'm outside of my actual jump range, it's stupid. I ulted to chase down an MF, she saw the warning and bolted, with nothing but her passive she stayed outside of my leap range, I had the extra mobi boots passive on my bonetooth and I still couldn't catch her.

-Combined with the fact that now I show up at the beginning of my leap it makes it difficult to actually do anything. With the warning, the jump change, and the stupid Q bug they have an extra 2~3 seconds to react before I can actually deal damage, wtf is that? On top of the fact that it takes an extra 2~3 seconds to actually complete my combo. With the fact that it takes 4~6 to burst people, the fact that you made said burst more unreliable, and the fact that you lowered his immediate burst essentially means that Rengar doesn't actually have burst anymore. Lets not even get into the delay you added between emp abilities and normal abilities, which tacks on an extra .5 seconds or so.

-So he's now a bruiser, unfortunately Rengar has neither the bases nor the utility to be a bruiser, so he can't do that either. So he's left with a tank role, but he still has no utility so he can't do that either. Wtf do you do with Rengar?

-W is actively worse in almost every scenario outside of a teamfight or small skirmishes, both of which are scenarios Rengar sucks in. At max rank you get an extra 2(yes 2) armor and mr over old W against a single, but you heal less in most scenarios unless you're almost dead. It still sucks ass in the jungle too.

-Q feels like trash, it's your best means of generating ferocity, so you have to max it, but it's clunky and slow. It makes his jungle significantly more painful and slow, his base hp and hp/5 are still trash, you end up almost dead after your first clear, and it pretty much stays that way until you get a completed jungle item, even then getting lizard does nothing for you because your single target deeps are slow as balls and your aoe damage is nonexistant. You don't actually clear fast enough to make good use of wriggles/feral flare either, but that's pretty much his best item.

-E. I dunno what to say about E. As Ren is now it's pretty much his lifeline. When you ult you need to lead with emp E to actually do damage. E however is slow, narrow, and too easy to miss, you miss E and you won't be able to keep your target close enough to you to actually do damage, and given the way his ult works, it's difficult to actually get to a target and when you do you're literally right on top of them, so you have to shuffle around to make sure your E won't just fly off. And you have to make sure your target is far enough away from any impeding obstacles so you don't hit the wrong target(so you want the target isolated so you don't miss E, if you miss E you aren't doing damage, but having an isolated target means you aren't really benefiting from W buffs, so at the end of the day it was pointless ironically). Only issue is that everyone else is gonna be shuffling around too(on top of the previous mentioned issue), and the support spends half their life on top of the carry, so hitting E is a pain in the ass. Sadly E got the best lot out of these changes

As it stands Rengar has no strengths, no goal, and he actively feels bad to play, there's nothing satisfying in his kit. You say old Rengar was too binary, but he's even worse now. At least before he could build assassin, kill the squishy and die or die trying, or splitpush, or he could build tank not be a damage or cc threat in TF's but be able to splitpush. Now he can't build assassin, and he can't splitpush. You pretty much removed one of the two options he had as a build path, and completely removed the only utility he had in the other.


-There's 0 reason for Q to not have attacks speed, you lowered the damage on Emp Q and double Q's burst, and made it so that neither interact with towers. Old Q and new Q even out thanks to the effective permanent 50% attack speed buff the former gave, so you can't actually say the damage went up.

-Rengar has no escape or general utility as a champ, he does nothing productive.

-Why the hell does he have a global cd between emp and normal abilities?

-Bump up the static move speed buff during stealth to 20% or so, so I can actually catch people, I can't use it to run away because the move speed buff only applies when chasing a champ, and they'll always know I'm in the area so I can't actually just stealth and sit still to juke anymore either. Or remove the goddamned warning.

-Fix E so that it'll be able to hit a target I'm right on top of

-Remake Rengar from the ground up, because you guys fail at trying to fix **** while keeping the general feel, so it comes out half-assed.

- You added so much counterplay to Rengar's kit that he feels like **** to play. His kit isn't complex enough nor does it allow for enough variation for this to work, he's not Zed or Yasuo, his outplay potential is severely limited.


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Dies to Wolves

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Jag View Post
One thing I'm curious on here is what is an assassin's idea of winning lane, especially in the top lane. When we see assassin's top lane they're generally more than happy to be able to farm against bruisers.
The problem is that he's no good mid and is underwhelming in the jungle. His passive plus early level cheese made him able to compete top lane, so hey, at least he had a place to go! Now he sucks top and is even more underwhelming in jungle, which makes him less and less viable.

Also, since you guys have put a warning on his stealth when he gets near, do the same for twitch, or else he will simply sneak behind us and kill our backline / sneak up on our lone support (or ADC) and kill him / etc.


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Rengarbage

Junior Member

04-03-2014

I just wanted to thank you for responding to my novel Riot Jag!

Also, you mentioned a curiosity for what I defined as winning lane as an assassin.
To be brief, I have the idea (or misconception) that assassins are partially meant to farm champs (i.e. assassins like LB and Talon in the mid lane are very capable of killing the opposition). This doesn't necessarily translate up to top lane, but I believe Rengar truly wins lane through an early kill (whereas he can manipulate the lane and afford to gank other lanes).


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Hawkefire

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
So let's talk about that perceived "incompetency" in a champion change - what do you perceive Rengar to need and what do you perceive this rework to have killed.

If you say super safe split pushing, you're going to make me sad.
I will do my best to make this sound like I am not bashing Scruffy...but it is kinda hard not to because he really should have handled this rework differently (especially the Skarner rework, but you really don't want to get me started on that one because I will take up pages upon pages of what was done wrong with that)
The incompetency is simply this:

A) Scruffy didn't ask the community if Rengar was ready to be released. The only thing I had seen was a "How do you feel about him so far" and the majority response was that his kit still needed work but was on the right direction (I reiterate, we said that he was heading the right way....not that he was complete and ready to be released!)

B) Because of A, this rework is INCOMPLETE, and UNFINISHED. It still had at LEAST 1 half a month of tweaking things here and there to ensure that his old playstyle was viable yet brought down to balance. This causes the majority to view the rework as a huge nerf (and indeed it is, because it DESTROYED his old playstyle. THIS IS WRONG. COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG. The reason we said it was on the right path, was because we wanted to preserve what his old playstyle was....the thing that we knew rengar was and loved him for, there isn't even a remote shred of what his old playstyle was in this rework)

In fact, the only old viable build for him would be Tanky Rengar, but with the current kit iteration he will deal nearly no damage if he did that.

This leaves a relatively new concept for Rengar: Bruiser Rengar

The Bruiser playstyle is a fairly huge change from his old playstyle, with you maxing different skills first, dealing far less damage, and also not bringing anything really that great to a teamfight. Tell me how Rengar can compete with any of the other bruisers? The answer: He really can't.

Let me explain:

The only thing that (Bruiser) Rengar brings to the table in terms of a teamfight are these: A slow/snare (unreliable, for simple reasons that it is a skillshot. Granted I like that it is a skillshot now, it simply is extremely difficult to use it during a teamfight and hit your desired target), decent damage, and a very bad initiation (Frankly, the ult telling every enemy champion HEY I AM STEALTHED AND COMING TO GET YOU, is A) Counter-intuitive. B) DESTROYS RENGAR.)



Now let me explain how the ult changes ruined Rengar's initiate (especially at higher elo). Let us assume he builds Bruiser (the only truly viable build for him atm) and that in the current match he is not facing anyone above silver level. Alright, Rengar uses his ultimate to engage on the enemy ADC. She has overextended herself away from her team. Your buddies are coming up behind you but they are a little ways off. They are closer to the enemy adc than the enemy team however. Now then, the moment Rengar gets within 1k units the enemy ADC immediately is aware that trouble is coming. She immediately begins disengaging and notifies her team that she needs aid. This causes your initiation to be delayed someone, because the ADC is moving away from your general direction. This allows her to delay your initiation and the moment you leap into her, their entire team is now in range and blow you up. Your team is engaging right behind you, but the surprise is lost and now both teams are fighting on equal terms.

Now let us examine how this would play out in a high level match: Rengar knows that the enemy has wards in the bush, but he has also sees that the enemy ADC has overextended and is mid lane. The enemy team is currently respawning after a double ace and are heading towards the enemy ADC. Your buddies are also respawning and heading towards you, however they are much closer to the enemy ADC than the enemy team is. You see the enemy adc and decide to capitalize upon it. So you use your ult to get in close to engage on her. But wait, you get within that 1k unit mark and now she knows you are there. She IMMEDIATELY places a pink ward and begins shooting at you and backing off. Your initiation is ruined and you are forced to back away because of the damage that the enemy ADC puts out (and no, the enemy adc was not fed, but she could still reliably deal 1/4 of your health and keep her distance because she used her disengage abilities upon Rengar and continuously orb-walked away). Now, the enemy team initiates on YOUR team because they have the advantage, thus causing you to lose the fight.

As you can see, in both examples Rengar supplements very little with his ultimate, and in the second example it actually causes him personal harm.

The only way to use his ultimate in a teamfight would be to wait for your team to engage or wait for the enemy team to engage on your team. However, this is counterintuitive because you are one of the teams tanks and thus you should be the one forcing the fight, not the one sneaking in to try and assassinate (because assassinating them just isn't possible anymore)

Now: Lets look at how his ultimate changes screwed up his ganks largely.

First and foremost (assuming low elo), we are going to assume that the lane hasn't been pushed in either direction. Both sides are equally matched (in kills/assists and cs). You go to engage on them using your ultimate. You get past the wards OK, but then you hit the 1k units mark and the enemy suddenly knows you are there. They don't burn their flashes but they do take a bit of free harass from your allies. The stalemate then continues as the enemy team heals themselves back up to full. The gank is unsuccessful.

Let us examine this at a higher elo. Now then, a slightly different example. The enemy team is winning lane, not by much but they are winning. However, they have overextended themselves. Your allies are beat up, but if you are able to engage upon the enemy team they can bring enough damage to the table to get a kill, 2 if one of the enemies makes a mistake. You begin your ult and go to sneak in, but SURPRISE there is a pink ward in the bush. They disengage from your allies but quickly begin moving to engage on YOU. You begin backing off, but they are fast and one of them flashes and stuns you. The enemy ADC quickly bursts you down. Your allies move in to aid you but it is too late, and they are forced to back away or end up giving them another kill.

Now let us examine another higher elo match, but this time there is no pink ward in the bush. You know that the bush is warded. The enemy team is once again slightly winning, and has your allies pushed back. Your allies are at half-health because of a bad engage and are currently attempting to recover, but they have enough damage and cc to pick up a kill if you go in, 2 if the enemy makes a mistake. You use your ult and begin going towards the enemy, and the moment you hit 1k units BOOM, they know you are their. They immediately place a pink ward down near themselves and CC Rengar, your allies are also engaging attempting to cc the enemies. However they are aware of the danger and are backing off. They are able to do a fair amount of damage to Rengar (about 1/4 his hp) but they were forced to back off...for now. You are forced to leave lane because the gank has failed, thus your allies are forced to deal with the enemy on their own.

As you can see, in the above examples, a bruiser jungle Rengar was also nerfed quite strongly.

Now let us examine bruiser rengar's ultimate in lane.

Low elo: The enemy is at low HP, you are at full HP. You use your ultimate to engage on the enemy. The moment you get within 1k units they notice the exclamation mark, and start backing off. You are able to engage on them still, and they burn flash to get away from you.

High elo: The enemy is at low HP, and you are at full HP. You use your ultimate to engage on the enemy. The moment you are within 1k units the enemy notices you and IMMEDIATELY places a pink ward at their feet. They then use CC on you and get away scotch free.

His ultimate isn't as bad in low elo when used in lane, however in high elo it is nearly worthless.

As you can see, the ultimate exclamation points warning the enemy of your presence is effectively making your ultimate useless at high elo, and just barely passable at low elo. I will mention that in my examples I was assuming that the enemy did know some basic knowledge of Rengar, thus they knew what the exclamation point meant. Even if they didn't know what the exclamation points meant they would still most likely be backing off towards a position of security (such as their tower, or their team) simply because it is human nature to be cautious when faced with the unknown. Now, if they ignore the base instinct and (foolishly) stay where they are and do nothing, then you will actually be able to use your ultimate to proper effect.

I will also say this, I can pick apart every single skill that he has and point out what is wrong with them and how they are bad for Rengar in their current state. The only skill change that was actually good in my eyes for this rework was the changes to his W. (His E change is a wash but I don't want to tackle that in this post because then the post would be overloaded).