Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Riot Jag

Associate Technical Design

04-03-2014
12 of 21 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rengarbage View Post
Hello,
After reading through many comments, ranging from raging to pure insults, I realized that the community is poorly conveying their message, which I will attempt to restate here.
Rengar is no longer viable as an assassin, and he cannot compete in the top lane. Additionally, the changes have also, arguably, weakened his jungle.
I will briefly discuss why I truly believe each of the aforementioned:

-Rengar relied heavily on his Q damage to assassinate, now, saying this with experience, a fed Rengar has trouble assassinating a lower level, squishy support due to the massive damage decrease (Don't even consider non-support champions, or equal level champions).
We have definitely shifted the time-to-kill window for Rengar's assassinations more into the fighter end of the spectrum (closer to Jax than Zed, for example). He's not going to kill someone in 1-2 seconds, yes, but his damage over 4-5 seconds should be comparable to or better than the previous version while also having stronger tank stats and better stickiness.

Quote:
-As far as the top lane goes, his level 2 "cheese" as some call it does about 1/4 of the other top laner's health on average, which is returned to Rengar multi-fold upon his journey back into the bushes. Other than being unable to have 'bursty' trades in his favor, he also completely lacks a consistent/reliable poke (since the e is now a skill shot). Due to the previous reasons, he can't successfully win a lane other than out farm, which isn't, in my opinion, as assassin's idea of winning lane.
It's true that his early lane has more weaknesses than his previous iteration. We shifted some of his power away from his Level 2 cheese and spammy E-harass, but added some back in sustained trades, healing when he's behind in lane, and assistance for jungle ganks. One thing I'm curious on here is what is an assassin's idea of winning lane, especially in the top lane. When we see assassin's top lane they're generally more than happy to be able to farm against bruisers.

Quote:
-Concerning the jungle, I believe he is already second-tier or less, however, the attack speed loss on his q makes camps harder to clear (excluding the damage reduction).

Additionally, I would like to add some additonal opinions:
I can understand why his tower killing could be viewed as too strong (although some would argue that it's not since it's an integral part of the champion). Regardless, I believe that changing his q to not work against towers is a valid nerf if you believe his pushing is too strong. However, I believe that by disallowing his q to damage towers, and reducing his damage drastically, the pushing nerf was doubly-applied.
If you feel like his pushing power is excessively weak I think that may be a fair criticism. We'd like to keep an eye on his overall power level since he has a lot of other really strong tools to aid in tower pushing (e.g. using an Empowered Q on a nearby minion for a strong AS bonus, the ult giving a good escape, etc.).

Quote:
Also, having tried many different builds on my separate accounts after the patch, I have come to believe that Rengar may be viable as a tank, but cannot be viable as an assassin or high damage source of any given team.
We want him to be in a state where he can still build to be a damage threat. If that's not true, then it's something we'll address.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheNoodleNinja

Junior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all,

The Rengar update is live and we're playing and monitoring his performance a ton on our end. Let's use this thread for constructive feedback. Once we have more data we will definitely be adjusting his power levels up or down if he needs it.

-How are the changes playing for you?
-What builds are you using?
-What lanes are you playing him in?
-Finding any bugs?

I've already seen a suggestion that I like: his alert to enemies during the ult only appears if they would be able to see him out of stealth, we're already talking about this a lot internally. This seems like a good way for Rengar to optimize a bit more by taking clever paths on ganks and approaches.

-Scruffy

You could start by changing him being listed as an assassin and a fighter and change it to tank. I suppose you could also offer anyone who spent RP on him a refund too.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lore Master

Junior Member

04-03-2014

i'm gunna go out on a limb and say Rengar's ult altering people is fine .. HOWEVER, the range of the indication is too small. Based on the laning phase, if i'm jungling as Rengar and someone gets my ult warning ... thye know i'm coming for their lane.....

Make it global, like Nocturne or TF ...
Make EVERYONE on the map wonder "Is he coming for me?"

There's power AND terror in that while still offering counter play.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Von Nicklesnout

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crewx View Post
Firstly, I'm sorry you have to deal with all the insults and lashings.

From the few games I played as him, I played him in the jungle. I must say, I did better than with old Rengar, but that's mostly due to the new Bola and Feral Flare. The new Bola is so much better for ganks, and sometimes, just throwing it near them without hitting them will bait out a Flash.

His Q does feel a bit underwhelming. Unempowered, it hardly did damage before I got Feral Flare. Empowered Q is good, though. Not being able to push towers hard really hurts, though. Maybe if you make it so only Unempowered Q can hit them, or only Empowered Q can hit them?

His new Roar is great, and the new Bonetooth is great. Small fix - In one of the games, I won the minievent against a Kha'Zix and it's still called "Bonetooth Necklace" and not "Head of Kha'Zix". The Icon does change though. One thing about it, the only way it helped me is that I jumped straight from 12 to 20 stacks. That's great, but if you compare it to the bonus Kha'Zix gets, it's a bit underwhelming. Maybe adding a new effect to the trinket will make it feel a little more rewarding to win the quest. Perhaps making it so, if you win the quest, you can leap to someone you hit with an Empowered Bola? Or maybe making it so you get a little Ferocity while in ult stealth? Just a few suggestions, they might be too much.

Another thing that would be cool is if the Bonetooth Totem had a unique model.

Speaking of his ult, it feels a little weird, but it's still good when you learn how to use it. After leaping at someone with it, hit QWE and I'm ready for Empowered Q. The damage doesn't come as fast, but it does still come, and the movement speed helps keep up with anyone who tries to run. As for the '!', in my first game people didn't seem to notice it, but the more games I played people seemed to wise up. Maybe it would be better if a Nocturny effect happens when he ults, so you know he's after someone, but don't know who. Or maybe a debuff rather than an exclaimation point that the enemy team gets when he activates it, that says, "You feel as if you're being hunted..."

Overall - A lot of things about the rework are great, namely the trinket, bola, and roar. The ult is a bit weird, but okay. Q needs a bit of a buff, I needed Feral Flare to be able to outdamage people.

My builds commonly used Feral Flare, Ravenous Hydra, Black Cleaver, and Guardian Angel. Other items depended on the game.
Good feedback, but one thing:

Scruffy is having to deal with lashings and insults because like with Skarner he took the community feedback for Rengar and just did his own thing as if the players had no idea what they're talking about.

How many Skarners have you seen picked after his rework? Far less than before said rework. I'd imagine that without any tweakings done, the same will happen to Rengar and every consecutive champion he touches.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Italian Ice

Senior Member

04-03-2014

My problem with the Ult seems similar to Fid's passive. Since you could see the debuff when Fid was unseen, you could tell he was either about to gank you or just very close to you. Rengar's ultimate is working just like that now - What's that roaring? Better hug tower and completely avoid any sort of attack!
In my opinion, the warning given off by his ult should work like Twisted Fate or Nocturne - warn everyone so that anyone could be a potential target, so there's at least some surprise to it. Not only this, but it adds some thematic and psychological aspects to the game when everyone is scared of the stalking cat.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Enjuine

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Q just feels incredibly bad.

- The removal of its attack speed completely destroyed jungle Rengar. It no longer works - you killed it beyond hope of revival with that change.

- The AS buff from the empowered version is still drastically less than the double AS buff you used to have. His attacks feel very sluggish as he's a champion that generally had a near permanent AS buff.

- It's damage is pathetic. Level 1 Q is a +20 damage autoattack. That is the most pathetic level 1 ability in the entire game, bar none. The only thing even close is Jax's W, which of course he never starts.

- It no longer affects towers...I dont see why this was necessary given that it barely does anything anymore anyway.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

kantaloup

Junior Member

04-03-2014

Please for the love of god let this be part of an april fools joke, Rengar is easily my all time favourite champ and in this patch he has become absolutely useless in lane, and in the jungle, don't even consider taking him into the jungle its about as effective as a leblanc jungle. the removal of the AS buff from his q and the ultimate warning makes his clear time impossibly slow and his ganks impotent His old gameplay was fun and exciting, now nothing, he deals next to no damage, and the only viable way to build is tanky. I must admit the skillshot on his e I actually kind of like, but giving that and taking away damage seems counter productive if it takes more skill to use shouldn't it at least pay off in some way, not to mention all his basic abilities had damage removed. And even though I know the triple q was a bit much but you cant even double q anymore, and...well, I must say you have made a diehard Rengar fan very unhappy.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HeWhoHates

Member

04-03-2014

Why was the Attack Speed removed from Regnar's Q?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Enderzone

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Nicklesnout View Post
Good feedback, but one thing:

Scruffy is having to deal with lashings and insults because like with Skarner he took the community feedback for Rengar and just did his own thing as if the players had no idea what they're talking about.

How many Skarners have you seen picked after his rework? Far less than before said rework. I'd imagine that without any tweakings done, the same will happen to Rengar and every consecutive champion he touches.
I've seen more Skarners in 3 days after his rework than before because no one played him before his rework except for the rare 1 in 600 Skarner main.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

uofmman67

Junior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all,

The Rengar update is live and we're playing and monitoring his performance a ton on our end. Let's use this thread for constructive feedback. Once we have more data we will definitely be adjusting his power levels up or down if he needs it.

-How are the changes playing for you?
-What builds are you using?
-What lanes are you playing him in?
-Finding any bugs?

I've already seen a suggestion that I like: his alert to enemies during the ult only appears if they would be able to see him out of stealth, we're already talking about this a lot internally. This seems like a good way for Rengar to optimize a bit more by taking clever paths on ganks and approaches.

-Scruffy
As many people have said,Rengar just feels a bit clunky. Q's are slow and don't really reset aa's. If anything, ferocity scaling by levels makes Rengar more of a binary champ. if he gets behind, he lacks the damage to do anything. If he gets ahead, he obliterates the enemy team. What I think would be interesting is to have Q do half damage to towers. This way, Rengar still has some split pushing capabilities but they aren't obnoxious.

As for bugs, were the changes to W's sound effects intended? Whenever I cast it, I hear the empowered heal noise when I use the regular skill, and it always makes the sound when Rengar hits an enemy despite not hitting one. Q doesn't have a sound effect when the skill disappears, and jumping from a bush and attacking with an aa or a Q has no sound either.