Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

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mogonk

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Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narasimha View Post
its far far easier to kill a Nasus early game than a Rengar
Not really, no. They're both pathetically weak at early levels.


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Narasimha

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orivar View Post
Then you let him. Once he's behind, he can go for towers all he wants while we 5v4 his team and push Nexus HARD. A behind Rengar was a weak Rengar.
You're assuming pretty hard that his team is bad/weak/behind enough to let you. And if they are, it doesn't matter anyway, does it? Assuming equal skill levels, what most teams would end up doing is turtling around the tier 1 towers while rengar was off doing his thing. These towers being the hardest to push down, it often gave even the weakest rengar enough time to break through 1 or two towers. At LEAST.


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PhoenixSlayer13

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Hello Scruff.

Yeah... I kinda expected the reactions here. A lot of anger. I'm going to take a more measured approach to this.

First, I want to touch on Rengar's role now. From past talks, it's apparent that Riot requires any true assassin to have some kind of escape mechanism. Kha'Zix stealth and jump, Zed shadow leap, LeBlanc W bouncing, etc. Rengar doesn't have an escape option, and thus the Rengar assassin playstyle was focused around killing a single target and then dying afterwards. Some people liked this. Me, I didn't like my whole gameplay being distilled into a single moment. I preferred building fighter-style so after I stabbed I could keep stabbing and roaring and such. Being the "Battle-Cat". So I do actually like the move away from the "kill and be killed" gameplay.

Next, I want to touch on each of Rengar's new abilities in turn, as well as Bonetooth Necklace.

Bonetooth: Sweet, it's a trinket. Also gives nice utility, especially with ult at later stack amounts.

Passive: Revealed at start of leap. Don't have an issue with this one, it makes sense. However, I've noticed that if I prime Q and then leap I don't hit the enemy with Q. I assume this is a bug, please fix thanks.

Q: I feel like the bonus damage on non-empowered Q could be a little more meaty at early levels. Twenty is a little low feeling to me. Removing the ability to proc on towers is something I've come to accept. You don't want Rengar split-pushing, you want him in the thick of the fight or prowling in the jungle. People have also said that this isn't acting like an auto-attack reset anymore, but from what I can tell it is. What I've always noticed with Rengar though is the animation of him pulling the knife out of his target seems really slow. That might need to be looked at.

Empowered Q: I actually really like this feel of this when I thought I wouldn't. It's like Rengar going into full knifecat mode. I think moving the attack speed to Empowered Q only really sells that "empowered" feel, as well as the damage amp for the duration. Like others, I've noticed that after Empowered Q there's a short global cooldown on normal Q. It's about enough space for a quick auto-attack though. I also like that with the lower cooldown on Q you can sometimes fit two normal Q's in during your Empowered Q onslaught. Knives upon knives.

W: Shorter cooldown at all ranks except last is helpful in the jungle. I also quite like the idea of gaining more resists when you roar at stuff that wants to kill you. Makes Rengar a bit tankier in a teamfight. The base values might use a slight bump though.

Empowered W: Clutch heals.

E: Longer-range skillshot with greater movement speed slow. Will minions get in the way? Yeah, that happens. But when you hit that bola from long range, it feels good. It's now both a catch-up and stay there tool instead of just a stay there tool. Speed might need a small increase.

Empowered E: Longer snare? Cool. Losing all your Ferocity if you miss? Feels bad man. Although this could be said about any skill-shot ult I suppose, to use an example.

R: This one got a lot of changes. I'll split this into two parts: stealthed and un-stealthed.

Stealth: Movement speed only when going towards people is OK for me. Discourages using ult as a cheap escape. What's the range on this though? The alert is... well yeah, it's weird. Like someone else mentioned, you could be sitting in a bush unseen, pop your ult, and the enemy would suddenly JUST KNOW you're around. The change of having the alert only when they would see you makes MUCH more sense. Like the enemy can sense that something is out there, but they're not sure where.

Unstealth: This is mainly where the big changes are. The movement speed boost after breaking stealth feels really good. If you look at a lion in the wild, this is exactly what happens: they lay low, creeping up to the prey and then BAM they make a run for it. I'm still not exactly sure how to feel about getting ferocity after leaving stealth though. While it definitely does reduce the insane burst right after leaving stealth, the fact that your ferocity is steadily climbing while using abilities makes for five seconds of crazy cat abilities flying everywhere.

Base Stats: Health per level is good, but might want to buff base health slightly as well. If you want Rengar in teamfights, he's gotta survive in them.

Overall, as I've been playing with this rework, I've come to like the "Battle-Cat" playstyle. Rengar still likes to focus on squishy targets and still has the tools to get to them. Though he doesn't burst nearly as hard anymore, he does have more to do in a teamfight than kill and die.

Hope this helps.


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Lexi BeIIe

Senior Member

04-03-2014

its really sad how riot is trying to destroy every assassin


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Narasimha

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogonk View Post
Not really, no. They're both pathetically weak at early levels.
Rengar has higher base health and isn't mana gated.
Nasus has higher health regen and base armor.
Rengars generally have the ability to remain in lane longer at earlier levels, if only because they can heal without mana and can harass similarly.


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Karn Bot

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Senior Member

04-03-2014

Personally his ult feels really lackluster. The 3 second delay into stealth feels really weak (especially since he no longer gets a speed boost when running away, and they can see when you have GOTTEN away) maybe cut it to 2 seconds (Also since he can no longer use it to splitpush getaway that duration should be lessened) It also feels like once I go unstealthed I can no longer jump people, maybe I just accidently jumped already, but losing that to gain a MS boost sucks. Also, the 5 ferocity gen is really wonky, I've combo'd wrong because I wasn't expecting to go from 3 to 5 with one spell because of a damn timer I can't see. Maybe change it so his next X abilities generate 2 ferocity or whatever, but as it stands I'm disliking the passive gen. (Especially since you can use it to run away with zero interaction. I was running from a jax and thresh after a failed jump on their face, and I was just running got a free E snare because I had just ult'd, saved my hide, but I dislike how he's rewarded for doing nothing)

Also, it's incredibly hard to jump on someone when they are in the middle of minions, then I lose all that empowered Q damage and such. Maybe make his jump prioritize champions if they are near the target so that it makes it a tad safer to jump into a ton of minions and still hit the target (Almost failed a gank because of this :/)

I like the trinket, but it seems weak and like the bonetooth will never be used in pros. Mainly because first you need SIX kills/assists (Five seems a tad nicer) to upgrade it, and while you COULD get it early, more than likely 6 K/A by the 9 level mark seems a tad hard. Then we have 14 more K/A = 475 gold to upgrade it even further that just seems a tad high (Maybe 10-12, if you're doing super well, then this will be a nice upgrade) This problem is even more exacerbated if you want to lane rango, then you have almost ZERO map presence to gank and get K/A's on other lanes unless you want to leave yours. This kinda makes people who want the trinket to be useful go into the jungle with him. Otherwise I do like the bonetooth part of it, that 25 MS feels really nice in ganks etc etc

Standard Q problems

I like the W

Loving that E (saved my bacon more than once so far with its longer range)

However, it feels a LOT harder to stick to someone (might be the lack of fluidness in his combos) I would jump their adc, and they use a small dash, and my attempt to kill them just suddenly got 300x harder. The E slow falloff means that when I get back to them they are normal speed again and my animations slow my moving down. The lack of burst also hurts this (not complaining on this part though as I realize he was meant to have longer kills now) but I compensated by building a tad tankier. (Maybe give his q trundle treatment, minislow to counteract the animation?)

Build I use so far

Bonetooth Totem thingy

Feral Flare (its OP, but I didn't say this)
Hydra
Randuins
Botrk
MR boots

Last item depends on the game


Overall I am liking this rework, gives him some more utility while making you play intelligently (he's no longer a super kill everything machine, more of a get in, get out kinda cat)

[Edit] Jesus, this post is large.... do I need a TL;DR?

[[Edit #2] Omg... I have a problem with rango now. I do NOT to be able to leap to wards with my damn passive. I don't care how cool the plays, 90% of the time someone will have just placed a ward to ward a bush, and i'm coming in my ult and BAM, leap and stealth have now been screwed over because of a damn ward. I got SOOOOO angry when this happened to me the first time, legitly let a kill get a way from me.


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SlitherySnakeSex

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Member

04-03-2014

Up or down? I think any lower and he will be a feather tickling his opponents.


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Servantofthe99

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The thought process here was that, with the goal of allowing opponents to react to Rengar's engage, we wanted to pursue alternate methods of increasing their reaction window without having to take it all out of his damage. The warning is meant to be a very short "Rengar is coming" moment but still allow Rengar to engage on the target.
So...TLDR: we gave everyone an automatic counter to Rengar's ult. Good stuff. #1 Good guy predator/hunter, gives warning before attacking. Because, hey, its not like its a high cooldown, only utlity based ultimate ability or anything....


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Rilakkuma

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Senior Member

04-03-2014

Empowered Q > Regular Q feels very slow. There's a significant time where you cannot cast it again, like a global cooldown timer (yet W feels a bit better).

The Ferocity buildup after Ult reveal is very frustrating to play with. Say I have 3-4 stacks and attempt to Q, but am disabled right as it's about to do damage and gain a stack of Ferocity. I expect to not gain the stack, but then instead DO gain a stack passively right as I Bola strike. Now I've "wasted" a possible Empowered Q because I gained full charges when I didn't expect to.

After ultimate it's very hard to keep track of Ferocity gains now. Please make it so after ult your abilities gain 2 Ferocity instead of 1 (removing the passive generation).

Q not affecting towers is frustrating. Being locked into the Q until it fades is frustrating. Not being able to build Ferocity while beating on a tower is frustrating. Please allow Q to at least gain Ferocity while attacking a tower - even if no extra damage is dealt. (Perhaps please also allow the Empowered Q to gain attack speed - again, even if no extra damage is dealt).


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Lilz Twisted

Senior Member

04-03-2014

The current topics at hand.

Clunkyness

I think the changes you said you were gonna make so it doesn't feel weird and clunky with his Q sounds great. Do it.

The Q on structures

You said you don't want rengar to be able to be able to split push as effectively anymore with such a safe escape. You made his ultimate a little less safe due to the functionality of it now and the alert, so I think the best solution is to allow Rengar to use the Q on structures for reduced damage and no ferocity stacks being accumulated

EDIT: The alternative is to allow the q to do no bonus damage but allow it to gain a ferocity stack, and then give the empowered Q a speed buff again.

The Ultimate Alert

The idea that was suggested that the alert should only happen is rengar is within 100 range and would be normally seen by enemies is perfect.