Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

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inplane

Senior Member

04-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noric View Post
Honestly, I'm glad rengar lost it. I would be glad if Nasus lost it. I would be glad if Shyvana lost it.. and anyone else that currently can spam aa resets on towers.
Point is, Riot gutted one of my favourite champs in terms of kit and concept and now leaves him in an incomplete state.
Sure I sound selfish, but now I can't even use him without my teammates screaming that hes useless or the other jungler pushing me out of my own game.


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Crimson Mutt 2

Senior Member

04-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNAgent View Post
So when is Rengar going to be able to Q towers again? Riot is trying to make him into a fighter now anyway so they might as well let Rengar use his Q on towers like before. Jax, Wukong, and Nasus (ESPECIALLY NASUS) can all use their ability on towers. Not to mention being able to Q a tower and then proceeding to Q it over and over until the ability goes on a cooldown just looks incredibly awkward. It just looks buggy now.

Update:
Attachment 948969
Except Jax's W doesn't work on towers, you ninny.


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Noric

Senior Member

04-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplane View Post
Point is, Riot gutted one of my favourite champs in terms of kit and concept and now leaves him in an incomplete state.
Sure I sound selfish, but now I can't even use him without my teammates screaming that hes useless or the other jungler pushing me out of my own game.
Frankly, some of that is probably you and some of that is riot.

Hopefully, he will feel(and be) a little better after the fixes and small buffs hit (I've been waiting to pick him up for the clunkiness to be gone).

As far as "concept" stuff - I agree that Riot wanted to change his play pattern. I don't think they liked the idea of an amazing assassin fighter that could melt towers after they insta-killed the person trying to stop their splitpush. Even after the changes, I've seen Rengars(on streams and high elo spectating) go full damage and either jump out and assassinate(in a team) or effectively 1 v 1 while split-pushing. The two big differences seem to be Rengar is tankier in teamfights, and no longer melts towers when split pushing.

The combination makes me think that riot changed his concept from being a 1 v 1 assassin that takes towers or instagibs squishies to a "bulldog" assassin that can get to your carry and stay on them until they are dead - and still survive because of good skill use. This is somewhat different from a standard bruiser due to his ult(which should be slightly better(if not as good as before) after the changes go through) and because unlike a normal bruiser that is always going to take time to kill, rengar is going to only be tanky long enough to survive the team IF he uses his skills at the right time/hitting enough targets.

That being said, it makes sense you might not like a changed playstyle and it would also make sense that you wouldn't preform as well if you are attempting to play him in a way that is no longer optimal.

I do feel sorry for your loss(it sucks to lose a main to a rework), though I will not miss tower melting rengar myself. I also hope you can either adjust to the new rengar in a way you like or find another champion that is as satisfying to play


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Kronus31

Junior Member

04-21-2014

Literally Destroyed him. i gave him plenty of chances. had a 85-90% win-rate with him and i literally lost so many games because i couldn't q mid leap, killing his burst. His laning is absolute ****. he has no harass what so ever if they hide behind minions while champs like Renek can use minions to harass then jump back, Ryze who spams Q all day, ETC. Rengar is an all-in champion and he cant anymore. He's a "hunter" not a "fighter" he was made to kill not to build tank and scratch the adc while his team burns you down. I'm the kind of person who keeps their cool, but this rework just didn't make any sense at all.


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KnifeLion

Senior Member

04-21-2014

I'm still enjoying the rework but can't wait for the buffs. The q bug is annoying when it happens, but other than that I feel that Rengar will be in a decent spot in 4.6

Last two days I've gone 6/1/4 with Rengar top, 10/0/9 with Rengar jungle, and 15/2/10 top on my other account.

I highly recommend Hydra > Youmou's > Last Whisper build order atm. After the Q animations are cleaned up I'll try going back to blade but without attack speed on Q it's harder to push down towers and waves.


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Brinstal

Junior Member

04-21-2014

Rengar is supposed to be primarily an assassin, and after that, a fighter. I mean, he has no escape, so he is supposed to kill and fulfill his role as an assassin, and then try to survive while dealing damage, just like a fighter is supposed to do. You cannot mix both, but you can work on both and offer some kind of mechanism to lessen the impact caused due to the transition between assassin and fighter. The old kit was not capable of doing it, and that is why Rengar was "high risk and high reward". Building him as an assassin was a death sentence - you would probably die after killing your target.
And Rengar, as a tank, could not fulfill his job as an assassin.

Keeping this in mind, I have done the following rework in my free time. If you like it, please, upvote and spread every word. Also, feel free to discuss about everything I am going to write here - and be respectful.

------------------------------------------------------------

Base Health Regen: 7.6 (+0.4 per level)

Savagery / Cooldown: 5s - minimum of 3s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 30/60/90/120/150 plus 120% Attack Damage.
Utility: It may be used to damage a structure, but only the base damage will be added to your attack.

Empowered Savagery
Damage: 20 + (10 * level) plus 150% Attack Damage.
Buff: 10% Attack Damage for 7s.
Buff: 50 + (5 * level)% Attack Speed for 7s.
Utility: No delay between Savagery and Empowered Savagery.
Utility: It may be used to damage a structure, but only the base damage will be added to your attack.

My opinion: Not much different from the actual version of Savagery and Empowered Savagery.
Actually, the buff is lasting longer due to the increased cooldown, but you can use Savagery twice
while the Attack Damage buff is active if you are fast enough. The interesting point is:
The damage dealt by Savagery while the buff is active is very similar to the old version plus Empowered Savagery on the old kit.
You have to choose well between a Empowered Savagery or an Empowered Bola Strike.
If you choose Empowered Bola Strike, your damage will be much lower - like now - but the utility will compensate it, even if you miss it.

--------------------------------------------------

Battle Roar / Range: 500 / Cooldown: 10s - Minimum of 6s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 40/80/120/160/200 plus 30% Attack Damage as magic damage.
Buff: 10/15/20/25/30 Armor and Magic Resist for 3 seconds.
Buff: 5/7.5/10/12.5/15 Armor and Magic Resist per enemy champion or large monster hit.
Buff: -2 damage received from a neutral monster.

Empowered Battle Roar
Damage: 30 + (15 * level) plus 30% Attack Damage.
Utility: A heal between 10 + (5 level) health, increased by 6.25% for every 1% of Rengar's missing Health for up to 50 + (25 level) health.
Utility: The buff provided by Battle Roar and Empowered Battle Roar does not stack, instead it will be reapplied (it may be the same value, or maybe not).

My opinion: The main problem with Empowered Battle Roar is in the jungle. The heal is not effective. If you use it, you will -irocanilly- take more damage.
Empowered Savagery is way more effective right now. Also, he has almost no resilience. What kind of hunter is beaten by its prey?

--------------------------------------------------

Bola Strike / Range: 1000 / Missile Speed: between 1500~2000 / Cooldown: 10s - Minimum of 6s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 50/100/150/200/250 plus 100% Attack Damage.
Buff: The target is revealed for 2s.
Effect: 60/65/70/75/80% for 2.5 seconds. The slow will not decay over the duration.

Empowered Bola Strike
Damage: 50 + (25 * level) plus 100% Attack Damage.
Effect: The target hit is rooted for 2 seconds. The slow is applied in full after the root.
Utility: Rengar is refunded 2 Ferocity if Empowered Bola Strike does not hit an enemy champion.
Utility: Rengar may leap at the rooted target.
Utility: The target is revealed for 2s.

My opinion: The projectile is too slow and very punishing if you miss it. Before the rework, Rengar was rendered useless if he could not kill his target.
Now, if you miss Empowered Bola Strike, you are completely useless. Also, the passive does not has much influence on his gameplay. There should be some interation.
And how the heck Elise has vision of the target hit by the cocoon and Rengar does not?!

--------------------------------------------------

Thrill of the Hunt / Cooldown: 120s/90s/60s - Minimum of 72s/54s/36s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Active: Stealth after 1 second (delayed up to 3 seconds if taking damage) for 10s.
Buff: 20% Movement Speed when chasing an enemy champion.
Buff: 1 Ferocity every 1s for 5s.
Utility: Vision of every enemy champion within 3000/4000/5000 range.
Utility: 30/40/50% Movement Speed after breaking stealth.
Utility: An enemy champion will be made aware when within 750 range.

My opinion: A slight buff and more time to think about your play. Also, 750 range is not much.
His leap has 600 range already. 150 range is enough time and distance to react properly as he is visible since the beginning of his leap.
Pretty much like Evelynn's passive.

--------------------------------------------------

Bonetooth Necklace: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword (800g) - IT IS NOT A TRINKET ANYMORE.
+15 Attack Damage
Basic attack restore 5 Health.
+5 Health after killing a small neutral monster or minion.
+15 Health after killing a big neutral monster.
+30 Health after killing an epic monster or scoring a kill or assist.

UNIQUE Passive Bounty Hunter: Champion kill, assist and epic monster grant 40 bonus Gold and large monster grant 10 bonus Gold.

UNIQUE Passive - Butcher: Against a neutral monster, deal 20% bonus damage.

UNIQUE - Mementos of the Hunt: One Trophy is stacked whenever a kill or assist is scored by Rengar.

3 Trophies - +25 bonus Movement Speed.
6 Trophies - Unseen Predator's range is increased by 150 - an enemy Champion will be made aware when within 900 range.
9 Trophies - +10 Armor Penetration, +5% Cooldown Reduction.
12 Trophies - Thrill of the Hunt stealth duration is increased by 5s.
20 Trophies - Active: 5 Ferocity for free (60 second cooldown).

My opinion: Now you have a good reason to kill Kha'Zix!
Also, it is not a trinket anymore, but it has some cool early stuff for a top laner.
Maybe I should swap the second and third bonus? I mean:
6 Trophies - +10 Armor Penetration, +5% Cooldown Reduction.
9 Trophies - Unseen Predator's range is increased by 150 - an enemy Champion will be made aware when within 900 range.



I may not be right about every number here, but the pattern is:
Allow him to jungle efficiently.
Allow the Empowered Savagery to give him the power provided by the old kit.
Bring back his old identity, or at least some of it.


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Kronus31

Junior Member

04-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinstal View Post
Rengar is supposed to be primarily an assassin, and after that, a fighter. I mean, he has no escape, so he is supposed to kill and fulfill his role as an assassin, and then try to survive while dealing damage, just like a fighter is supposed to do. You cannot mix both, but you can work on both and offer some kind of mechanism to lesser the impact caused due to the transition between assassin and fighter. The old kit was not capable of doing it, and that is why Rengar was "high risk and high reward". Building him as an assassin was a death sentence - you would probably die after killing your target.
And Rengar, as a tank, could not fulfill his job as an assassin.

Keeping this in mind, I have done the following rework in my free time. If you like it, please, upvote and spread every word. Also, feel free to discuss about everything I am going to write here - and be respectful.

------------------------------------------------------------

Base Health Regen: 7.6 (+0.4 per level)

Savagery / Cooldown: 5s - minimum of 3s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 30/60/90/120/150 plus 120% Attack Damage.
Utility: It may be used to damage a structure, but only the base damage will be added to your attack.

Empowered Savagery
Damage: 20 + (10 * level) plus 150% Attack Damage.
Buff: 10% Attack Damage for 7s.
Buff: 50 + (5 * level)% Attack Speed for 7s.
Utility: No delay between Savagery and Empowered Savagery.
Utility: It cannot be used to damage a structure.

My opinion: Not much different from the actual version of Savagery and Empowered Savagery.
Actually, the buff is lasting longer due to the increased cooldown, but you can use Savagery twice
while the Attack Damage buff is active if you are fast enough. The interesting point is:
The damage dealt by Savagery while the buff is active is very similar to the old version plus Empowered Savagery on the old kit.
You have to choose well between a Empowered Savagery or an Empowered Bola Strike.
If you choose Empowered Bola Strike, your damage will be much lower - like now - but the utility will compensate it, even if you miss it.

--------------------------------------------------

Battle Roar / Range: 500 / Cooldown: 10s - Minimum of 6s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 40/80/120/160/200 plus 30% Attack Damage as magic damage.
Buff: 10/15/20/25/30 Armor and Magic Resist for 3 seconds.
Buff: 5/7.5/10/12.5/15 Armor and Magic Resist per enemy champion or large monster hit.
Buff: -2 damage received from a neutral monster.

Empowered Battle Roar
Damage: 30 + (15 * level) plus 30% Attack Damage.
Utility: A heal between 10 + (5 level) health, increased by 6.25% for every 1% of Rengar's missing Health for up to 50 + (25 level) health.
Utility: The buff provided by Battle Roar and Empowered Battle Roar does not stack, instead it will be reapplied (it may be the same value, or maybe not).

My opinion: The main problem with Empowered Battle Roar is in the jungle. The heal is not effective. If you use it, you will -irocanilly- take more damage.
Empowered Savagery is way more effective right now. Also, he has almost no resilience. What kind of hunter is beaten by its prey?

--------------------------------------------------

Bola Strike / Range: 1000 / Missile Speed: between 1500~2000 / Cooldown: 10s - Minimum of 6s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 50/100/150/200/250 plus 100% Attack Damage.
Buff: The target is revealed for 2s.
Effect: 60/65/70/75/80% for 2.5 seconds. The slow will not decay over the duration.

Empowered Bola Strike
Damage: 50 + (25 * level) plus 100% Attack Damage.
Effect: The target hit is rooted for 2 seconds. The slow is applied in full after the root.
Utility: Rengar is refunded 2 Ferocity if Empowered Bola Strike does not hit an enemy champion.
Utility: Rengar may leap at the rooted target.
Utility: The target is revealed for 2s.

My opinion: The projectile is too slow and very punishing if you miss it. Before the rework, Rengar was rendered useless if he could not kill his target.
Now, if you miss Empowered Bola Strike, you are completely useless. Also, the passive does not has much influence on his gameplay. There should be some interation.
And how the heck Elise has vision of the target hit by the cocoon and Rengar does not?!

--------------------------------------------------

Thrill of the Hunt / Cooldown: 120s/90s/60s - Minimum of 72s/54s/36s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Active: Stealth after 1 second (delayed up to 3 seconds if taking damage) for 10s.
Buff: 20% Movement Speed when chasing an enemy champion.
Buff: 1 Ferocity every 1s for 5s.
Utility: Vision of every enemy champion within 3000/4000/5000 range.
Utility: 30/40/50% Movement Speed after breaking stealth.
Utility: An enemy champion will be made aware when within 750 range.

My opinion: A slight buff and more time to think about your play. Also, 750 range is not much.
His leap has 600 range already. 150 range is enough time and distance to react properly as he is visible since the beginning of his leap.
Pretty much like Evelynn's passive.

--------------------------------------------------

Bonetooth Necklace: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword (800g) - IT IS NOT A TRINKET ANYMORE.
+15 Attack Damage
Basic attack restore 5 Health.
+5 Health after killing a small neutral monster or minion.
+15 Health after killing a big neutral monster.
+30 Health after killing an epic monster or scoring a kill or assist.

UNIQUE Passive Bounty Hunter: Champion kill, assist and epic monster grant 40 bonus Gold and large monster grant 10 bonus Gold.

UNIQUE Passive - Butcher: Against a neutral monster, deal 20% bonus damage.

UNIQUE - Mementos of the Hunt: One Trophy is stacked whenever a kill or assist is scored by Rengar.

3 Trophies - +25 bonus Movement Speed.
6 Trophies - Unseen Predator's range is increased by 150 - an enemy Champion will be made aware when within 900 range.
9 Trophies - +10 Armor Penetration, +5% Cooldown Reduction.
12 Trophies - Thrill of the Hunt stealth duration is increased by 5s.
20 Trophies - Active: 5 Ferocity for free (60 second cooldown).

My opinion: Now you have a good reason to kill Kha'Zix!
Also, it is not a trinket anymore, but it has some cool early stuff for a top laner.
Maybe I should swap the second and third bonus? I mean:
6 Trophies - +10 Armor Penetration, +5% Cooldown Reduction.
9 Trophies - Unseen Predator's range is increased by 150 - an enemy Champion will be made aware when within 900 range.



I may not be right about every number here, but the pattern is:
Allow him to jungle efficiently.
Allow the Empowered Savagery to give him the power provided by the old kit.
Bring back his old identity, or at least some of it.
Give them a job at riot please


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L3onidas

Member

04-21-2014

The bug - jumping out of brush with a loaded Q or Qing while jumping that wasn't registering AT ALL, was this fixed? Or? I didn't see any posts or fixes for Rengar in the 4.6 patch about this particular bug.


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Noric

Senior Member

04-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L3onidas View Post
The bug - jumping out of brush with a loaded Q or Qing while jumping that wasn't registering AT ALL, was this fixed? Or? I didn't see any posts or fixes for Rengar in the 4.6 patch about this particular bug.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The bug is fixed on the pbe as we'll.
Given everything else he talked about from pbe for rengar is in patch - pretty sure it should be fixed.


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

04-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinstal View Post
Rengar is supposed to be primarily an assassin, and after that, a fighter. I mean, he has no escape, so he is supposed to kill and fulfill his role as an assassin, and then try to survive while dealing damage, just like a fighter is supposed to do. You cannot mix both, but you can work on both and offer some kind of mechanism to lesser the impact caused due to the transition between assassin and fighter. The old kit was not capable of doing it, and that is why Rengar was "high risk and high reward". Building him as an assassin was a death sentence - you would probably die after killing your target.
And Rengar, as a tank, could not fulfill his job as an assassin.

Keeping this in mind, I have done the following rework in my free time. If you like it, please, upvote and spread every word. Also, feel free to discuss about everything I am going to write here - and be respectful.

------------------------------------------------------------

Base Health Regen: 7.6 (+0.4 per level)

Savagery / Cooldown: 5s - minimum of 3s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 30/60/90/120/150 plus 120% Attack Damage.
Utility: It may be used to damage a structure, but only the base damage will be added to your attack.

Empowered Savagery
Damage: 20 + (10 * level) plus 150% Attack Damage.
Buff: 10% Attack Damage for 7s.
Buff: 50 + (5 * level)% Attack Speed for 7s.
Utility: No delay between Savagery and Empowered Savagery.
Utility: It cannot be used to damage a structure.

My opinion: Not much different from the actual version of Savagery and Empowered Savagery.
Actually, the buff is lasting longer due to the increased cooldown, but you can use Savagery twice
while the Attack Damage buff is active if you are fast enough. The interesting point is:
The damage dealt by Savagery while the buff is active is very similar to the old version plus Empowered Savagery on the old kit.
You have to choose well between a Empowered Savagery or an Empowered Bola Strike.
If you choose Empowered Bola Strike, your damage will be much lower - like now - but the utility will compensate it, even if you miss it.

--------------------------------------------------

Battle Roar / Range: 500 / Cooldown: 10s - Minimum of 6s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 40/80/120/160/200 plus 30% Attack Damage as magic damage.
Buff: 10/15/20/25/30 Armor and Magic Resist for 3 seconds.
Buff: 5/7.5/10/12.5/15 Armor and Magic Resist per enemy champion or large monster hit.
Buff: -2 damage received from a neutral monster.

Empowered Battle Roar
Damage: 30 + (15 * level) plus 30% Attack Damage.
Utility: A heal between 10 + (5 level) health, increased by 6.25% for every 1% of Rengar's missing Health for up to 50 + (25 level) health.
Utility: The buff provided by Battle Roar and Empowered Battle Roar does not stack, instead it will be reapplied (it may be the same value, or maybe not).

My opinion: The main problem with Empowered Battle Roar is in the jungle. The heal is not effective. If you use it, you will -irocanilly- take more damage.
Empowered Savagery is way more effective right now. Also, he has almost no resilience. What kind of hunter is beaten by its prey?

--------------------------------------------------

Bola Strike / Range: 1000 / Missile Speed: between 1500~2000 / Cooldown: 10s - Minimum of 6s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Damage: 50/100/150/200/250 plus 100% Attack Damage.
Buff: The target is revealed for 2s.
Effect: 60/65/70/75/80% for 2.5 seconds. The slow will not decay over the duration.

Empowered Bola Strike
Damage: 50 + (25 * level) plus 100% Attack Damage.
Effect: The target hit is rooted for 2 seconds. The slow is applied in full after the root.
Utility: Rengar is refunded 2 Ferocity if Empowered Bola Strike does not hit an enemy champion.
Utility: Rengar may leap at the rooted target.
Utility: The target is revealed for 2s.

My opinion: The projectile is too slow and very punishing if you miss it. Before the rework, Rengar was rendered useless if he could not kill his target.
Now, if you miss Empowered Bola Strike, you are completely useless. Also, the passive does not has much influence on his gameplay. There should be some interation.
And how the heck Elise has vision of the target hit by the cocoon and Rengar does not?!

--------------------------------------------------

Thrill of the Hunt / Cooldown: 120s/90s/60s - Minimum of 72s/54s/36s with 40% Cooldown Reduction.
Active: Stealth after 1 second (delayed up to 3 seconds if taking damage) for 10s.
Buff: 20% Movement Speed when chasing an enemy champion.
Buff: 1 Ferocity every 1s for 5s.
Utility: Vision of every enemy champion within 3000/4000/5000 range.
Utility: 30/40/50% Movement Speed after breaking stealth.
Utility: An enemy champion will be made aware when within 750 range.

My opinion: A slight buff and more time to think about your play. Also, 750 range is not much.
His leap has 600 range already. 150 range is enough time and distance to react properly as he is visible since the beginning of his leap.
Pretty much like Evelynn's passive.

--------------------------------------------------

Bonetooth Necklace: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword (800g) - IT IS NOT A TRINKET ANYMORE.
+15 Attack Damage
Basic attack restore 5 Health.
+5 Health after killing a small neutral monster or minion.
+15 Health after killing a big neutral monster.
+30 Health after killing an epic monster or scoring a kill or assist.

UNIQUE Passive Bounty Hunter: Champion kill, assist and epic monster grant 40 bonus Gold and large monster grant 10 bonus Gold.

UNIQUE Passive - Butcher: Against a neutral monster, deal 20% bonus damage.

UNIQUE - Mementos of the Hunt: One Trophy is stacked whenever a kill or assist is scored by Rengar.

3 Trophies - +25 bonus Movement Speed.
6 Trophies - Unseen Predator's range is increased by 150 - an enemy Champion will be made aware when within 900 range.
9 Trophies - +10 Armor Penetration, +5% Cooldown Reduction.
12 Trophies - Thrill of the Hunt stealth duration is increased by 5s.
20 Trophies - Active: 5 Ferocity for free (60 second cooldown).

My opinion: Now you have a good reason to kill Kha'Zix!
Also, it is not a trinket anymore, but it has some cool early stuff for a top laner.
Maybe I should swap the second and third bonus? I mean:
6 Trophies - +10 Armor Penetration, +5% Cooldown Reduction.
9 Trophies - Unseen Predator's range is increased by 150 - an enemy Champion will be made aware when within 900 range.



I may not be right about every number here, but the pattern is:
Allow him to jungle efficiently.
Allow the Empowered Savagery to give him the power provided by the old kit.
Bring back his old identity, or at least some of it.
Add in a slight interrupt on W (.05 second stun, just to interrupt channels) and this would make him golden, number tuning aside