Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

First Riot Post
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Fellix722

Junior Member

04-06-2014

I already refunded him because I played him 8 games in a row after the rework and lost every single one and went consistently negative, the day before the patch I play consistently positive and won 3/4 of my games.

I have very little hope that you will fix Rengar, but I can always hope.

I have picked up kha zix and have found him to be be much better than even pre gutted Rengar.

But If you want some feedback I might as well repost something that I posted before in hopes of positive change.

First fix the Q, make it do the same flat damage so we dont have to hope to scale, either that or add attack speed. Make Q hit turrets but do say 50%-75% damage, Ive seen how fast Jax and Nasus can kill a turret why shouldn't Rengar when hes much more squishy??

dont care about W changes didnt have a chance to take advantage of it because I was dead before I could even enter a teamfight.

E changes are annoying simply because they hit minions, make it to were it only hits champions and large monsters and we can call it even.

As for his ult its completely useless right now, no one is getting surprised by it and it has incredibly low ganking potential, so either revert it to what it was before or consider one of my ideas.

Option 1

R-No stealth, instant cast 30/40/50% movement speed increase for 8 seconds gains sight range 2000/3000/4500 gains 1 ferocity each second for 5 seconds allows for leap anytime within 8 seconds
(Still awful compared to Fizz ult)

This one works as an escape and an engage and a gank so it would work well with both tank Rengar and Assassin Rengar and best of that Riot still achieves what they wanted to in the first place and that was for the enemies to be able to see him coming and they will have a chance to react and survive.

Option 2

R-Stealth for 10 seconds 20% movement speed increase No ferocity gain no leap No Champion vision No enemy champion warning when Rengar is 1000 Range away (but seriously lets take a look at every other champions ult and compare it to Rengars current, its laudable)

I dont like this just because it is a big nerf from the original, but its a whole lot better than the current R

Option 3

R-Stealth for 3 seconds instant full ferocity and can leap for the next 5 seconds No enemy alert when 1000 range away (maybe add a timed damage increase too, So many other champions have better ults that this)

I like this one a bit because it helps him gank and initiate and/or turn and reenter a fight. So in other words it helps with tank Rengar and Assassin Rengar.

Have fun, I understand why people are angry though, the changes were made even when the PBE told you his ult was useless and the same with everyone on the forums.

But best of luck anyways
-Fellix


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Time Rider

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Why can't you just UNDO what you did to Rengar and Skarner? They both suck now and aren't fun at all.


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Wero34

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfavhunter View Post
Fixing rengar

Damage adjustments

Bug fixes

Let E reveal the target struck so he can do some wall jumps in jungle

Add this one mechanic

FR

Rengar is able to cast this one he can use R, costs 5 ferocity no cd

Rengar instantly stealths for 1*.1/lvl seconds (no ms buff) and gains unseen predator while stealthed, if he deals damage he is revealed (does not apply to dots like red) (1.6-2.8 second on demand stealth that costs 5 ferocity, giving him the ability to pull some good plays and he can use his 5 ferocity from ult to use this as escape or continued chase [he will have bonus MS from ult])
Would be nice let rengar E reveal, this can open a wide variations of plays, like target golems to jump them and scape.

i like it


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CaptainWinget

Junior Member

04-06-2014

Rengar needs a bit of burst again especially for that early game... Right now any champion that scales and paired with lifesteal just beats Rengar in champion select with no possibility of being outplayed. Especially Nasus, there is absolutely no way to stop him from farming as he just heals up due to lack of reliable poke and burst to counteract the lifesteal he gets.


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bluefishfish

Junior Member

04-06-2014

Rengar rework- indepth analysis of Rengar's overly complicated q math//review of damage changes.

We all know pre nerfbat Rengar was famous for a few things.

1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth // 3xQ+tiamat/hydra *inb4 can't triple q* see below
2) being able to demolish towers in 3 seconds //AS on q. towerq +hydra push
3) free unavoidable lane poke on a short cooldown. // build fury with e to Empowered W in hard lanes.


prelim "Feels bad" section
=============================
cant q tower at all. just feels bad on top of the attack speed nerf. NEW "trash-tier-feels-bad-BUG": rengar jump-stabs over and over as if

hes going to q the tower, but he doesnt q the tower...

winning "the hunt" event vs khazix is now almost worthless vs gaining normal stacks. Head of Khazix needs +AD or +%damage to be relevant in

my opinion. Old bonetooth necklace +20 stacks was WAY stronger. Kha'zix 4th evolution is WAY stronger.
new Head of Khazix vs old has:
-10 armor pen, -5% cdr, -25 leap range, -1 ferocity on ulty.
+3 seconds thrill of the hunt. "+double movespeed thrill of the hunt"
-ad/lvl, but the fact that its free to buy and takes no item slot nullifies the AD/lvl factor completely.

Rengar empowered Q followed by normal Q used to be instant casting (or after an auto). now theres a .5 sec delay? its a change and it feels bad. =(

SUMMARY OF DATA SECTION.
=============================
1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth. Lets check the damage changes.

damage of New savagery//Old savagery +++ NEW EMP SAVAGERY//OLD +++
LVL1 98 /108 LVL1 150/186
LVL3 140/156 LVL3 202/252
Lvl5 184/203 Lvl5 252/316
LVL7 230/251 LVL7 304/382
LVL9 310/325 LVL9 395/500
LVL18@200ad 340/350 LVL18@200ad 539/550
LVL18@250ad 400/400 LVL18@250ad 621/650
LVL18@300ad 460/450 LVL18@300ad 704/750

The old combo looks like this>> ult, jump in Q, EmpQ, Q again. new combo is a bit slower>> Ult, Q+EmpQ, 4 seconds, Q+EmpQ again.

old Combo (2x-Q. 1xEmpQ) new combo (EmpQ+Q, ult ferocity delay, then Q+EmpQ
***2 second fight***
(Q Burst potential)new Q+EmpQ
vs old Q+EmpQ+Q
damage. new combo / old damage
LVL1 248, 5sec+248 +50%AS / 402 +90 AS...a change of -154
LVL3 342, 5sec+342 +56%AS / 564 +105AS...a change of -222
LVL5 436, 5sec+436 +62%AS / 722 +120AS...a change of -286
LVL7 534, 5sec+534 +68%AS / 884 +135AS...a change of -350
LVL9 705, 5sec+705 +74%AS / 1150+150AS...a change of -445
LVL18@200ad 879, 5sec+879 +101%as/ 1250+150AS...a change of -371
LVL18@200ad 1021, 5sec+1021 +101%as/ 1450+150AS...a change of -429
LVL18@200ad 1164, 5sec+1164 +101%as/ 1650+150AS...a change of -486

***6 second fight***
new Ult+EmpQ+Q+4secs+Q+EmpQvs new Q+Emp
vs Old Ult+Q+EmpQ+Q+5secs+Q
damage
LVL1...a change of -14
LVL3...a change of -36
LVL5...a change of -53
LVL7...a change of -67
LVL8...a change of -65 (-5 damage at L12,+15 at L13)
LVL18@200ad...a change of +158
LVL18@250ad...a change of +192
LVL18@300ad...a change of +228



Conclusion: This pretty much proves what the designers said about Rengar's new burst being trashy, but in a longer fight, AND with a mid-endgame build he actually does more damage than before. I feel that his q took too much nerfbat for the early game. Rengar's 2xQ BURST DAMAGE is nerfed REALLY hard. Assuming a 6 second fight, the damage from old Rengar will break even at LVL12. The new overall attack speed will balance out over the 6 second fight, but is severely punished in shorter fights/harass/trades. THe 33% lower cooldown on new normal Q will not make up for the -attack speed. 50% attack speed is HUGE. Assassin/jungle Rengar is be much less viable due to these changes. In my experience playing new rengar, jungling without attack speed on normal Q feels REAAALLLLLLY SLOW for clears. Laning is hard because of the bola changes and Q not trading well early game. In top lane, Renekton, Nasus, etc will out trade and out sustain your low damage. I'm not really sure where Rengar is viable as he under performs in the jungle and in top lane currently.

At the highest levels/endgame build, new rengar will do MORE damage than old rengar in a 6 second sustained dps fight. THe question is, can that be accomplished easily on a squishy in the middle of a 5v5. probably not. Old rengar dealt his damage instantly and was not easily preventable via CC/reset delays, similar to present day Kha'zix or wukong jumping on your face from stealth. New rengar's ult feels a lot more like Zed's all in. The problem is, other champions are much better assassins or much better fighters...so where does rengar fit in? They know youre coming, It'll take a few seconds before they die and there are ways to CC you off the target//opportunity for heals and escapes, especially with bola getting bodyblocked by a non preferred target.

2) being able to demolish towers in 3 seconds //AS on q. towerq +hydra push
Rengar will have MUCH lower Attack speed bonus from Q at all levels. 40%-76% less attack speed, thus less pushing and less effective trading in lane. in addition to this, his heal is pretty nerfed. =/ the AS change to normal q feels really bad , as Rengar does even less damage than his pre patch "nerfed" state. i do not feel that the changes to his "gains furiosity after ult+movespeed to chase" makes up for losing the 3rd Q on the front end and the AS. In my experience as of late, if you dont instagib the ADC, they flash over a wall or their friends CC you. Cant chase=gg. In his current state, i would not play Rengar in ranked so much, as i feel he under performs early game during lane phase AND in the jungle. what IS viable with new Rengar, is 2xBOLA spam to lock down a squishy while your friends move in to crush the perma-rooted victim. This only works with tanky Rengar as you're going to be initiating/facetanking. Assassin-ish rengar doesnt work so well until
L18+lots of gear.....but then again, id rather have amumu or malphite etc if my job was to lock people down while my team moved in. i know ive said this already, but im not really sure what rengar's job is on a team anymore. inb4 assassin (burst nerfed). inb4 fighter (low trade ability and jungle clear). inb4 tank (pick another champ)

3) Rengar will have a hard time in lane due to the lack of bola harass. the bola being a skillshot really hurts lane Rengar as he will never out trade in lane using Q, meaning that bola is the likely be 1st skill in lane now......and theres no guarantee of damage from a skillshot.

Rengar Q rework math, magic and fairies.
================================================== ===============================
1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth // 3xQ+tiamat/hydra

Rengar has been nerfed even more due to changes to 3x q in the last patch. no insta Q from EmpQ reset feels REALLY BAD. =(
BUT, BUT BLUEFISHFISH!!?? triple q was broken before!!!!11!
NOT SO! Blatant plagarism follows. from "Rengar my love" http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...php?t=4185752#
"""
Breaking down the Rengar Q duration nerf: Triple Q is not gone.
Edit: The changes are going live- hope you're all ready to get your timing right~
Edit 2: I've confirmed in game, it still works.

TLDR(only it's before the post, hah): Triple Q is still possible.

So the duration of Savagery's on next hit buff has been reduced to 2 seconds- down from 6, on the PBE. This is Riot's attempt at removing the "abuse of game mechanics" that is Rengar's triple Q.
To those that do not know, Rengar's triple Q involves ulting while you have between 2-4 ferocity, activating Q2 the instant you hit 5 ferocity and then letting your ferocity generate back to 2-4, jumping at your target then using a mix of Q + W and or E to reach 5 ferocity again to reactivate Q2.

This works because Rengar's ultimate grants him 1 ferocity every 0.75 seconds, up to a maximum of 5. If Rengar frees up his full ferocity bar without breaking his ult (activating Q2), this generation does not stop and continues to slightly fill up the newly empty bar. Anyways, the

Rengar player has between 1.5-5.25 seconds (depending on having 2-4 ferocity when you start) to jump their target in the current iteration.

With the nerf, a Rengar without 14 stacks on their Bonetooth Necklace has 0.5 seconds to jump their target (while a Rengar with 14 stacks has

1.25 seconds) to pull off the triple Q.

I'll step you through it (with the duration nerf).

Rengar on 2 ferocity activates their ult.
After 2.25 seconds the Rengar player activates Q2.
After waiting 1.5 seconds to generate 2 more ferocity, the Rengar jumps their target within a 0.5 second window so the first Q2 buff doesn't time out.
Since Rengar's passive works like a ranged auto attack with no projectile (other than Rengar himself), the Q2 buff is consumed the instant the Rengar right clicks their target (assuming they're in range). Rengar reactivates Q while in the air- he's up to 3 ferocity as he lands.
Rengar casts his W and E- he's back on 5 ferocity.
Rengar murders his target with the third Q.

There's a few ways Riot could have fixed this "abuse of game mechanics", including but not limited to: Thrill of the Hunt stops generating

ferocity when Rengar hits 5 ferocity, adding a cooldown to Rengar's enhanced abilities or making it so activating Q cancels Rengar's ult

(Rengar player has to jump his target before activating Q).
"""
================================================== ========

anyway, on with the math and justification.
================================================== ========
Old Savagery
Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 100% AD)
Attack Speed: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% for 4 seconds.
Empowered Savagery
Active: Savagery deals additional damage equal to 100% of Rengar's attack damage, and he gains increased attack speed equal to double the

normal bonus. Basic and Empowered Savagery's attack speed bonuses can overlap and stack with each other.
Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 200% AD)
Attack Speed: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100%
Stacked Attack Speed Bonus: 90 / 105 / 120 / 135 / 150%

New Savagery
Modified Physical Damage: 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 120 % AD)
Empowered Savagery
Active: Savagery deals modified damage equal to 10 + (10 * level) (+ 150% AD). Additionally, Savagery grants Rengar bonus 47 + (3 * level) %

attack speed and increases his attack damage by 10% for 5 seconds.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
overlap comparison.

new savagery has -10/-20+5%/-30+10%/-40+15%/-50+20% damage
in order to break even with old savagery on flat damage with the %ad ratio you need
NA/+400ad/+300ad / +267ad/ +250ad
this is clearly not possible early game. this is clearly a nerf to q early game. late game it is reasonable to reach 250ad and the levels should be about the same. New empowered Q has 10 + (10*level) (+150% AD). Additionally, Savagery grants Rengar bonus 47 + (3 * level) % attack speed and increases his attack damage by 10% for 5 seconds

EXAMPLE standard gear for damage by level to give a vague idea of what damage should be happening with ad scaling.
LVL1 -78ad no gear/ad runes
LVL3 -96 longsword
LVL5 -113 2xlongsword
LVL7 -131 completed SOTEL (or brutalizer+longsword, earliar doran)
LVL9 -175 completed tiamat
LVL18-200 theoretical end build
LVL18-250 theoretical end build
LVL18-300 theoretical end build

Empowered savagery damage at certain hero levels. assuming leveling q first.
character LEVELS) damage
New Empowered Q Old Empowered Q
1) 20 +150%ad +50%AS +10%damage/5secs 30 (+ 200% AD) +60AS /+90 AS (/stacked AS)
3) 40 +150%ad +56%AS +10%damage/5secs 60 (+ 200% AD) +70AS /+105AS
5) 60 +150%ad +62%AS +10%damage/5secs 90 (+ 200% AD) +80AS /+120AS
7) 80 +150%ad +68%AS +10%damage/5secs 120(+ 200% AD) +90AS /+135AS
9) 100 +150%ad +74%AS +10%damage/5secs 150(+ 200% AD) +100AS/+150AS
18)190 +150%ad +101%as+10%damage/5secs 150(+ 200% AD) +100AS/+150AS

1)20+117 =137 *1.1=150.7 1)30+156 =186
3)40+144 =184 *1.1=202.4 3)60+192 =252
5)60+169.5 =229.5*1.1=252.45 5)90+226 =316
7)80+196.5 =276.5*1.1=304.15 7)120+262=382
9)100+262.5 =362.5*1.1=395.5 9)150+350=500

18@200ad)190+300=490*1.1=539 18@200ad)150+400=550
18@250ad)190+375=565*1.1=621.5 18@250ad)150+500=650
18@300ad)190+450=640*1.1=704 18@300ad)150+600=750

NORMAL savagery damage
New savagery Old savagery
1) 20 +100%ad 30 (+ 100% AD) +30AS
3) 40 +105%ad 60 (+ 100% AD) +35AS
5) 60 +110%ad 90 (+ 100% AD) +40AS
7) 80 +115%ad 120(+ 100% AD) +45AS
9) 100 +120%ad 150(+ 100% AD) +50AS
18)100 +120%ad 150(+ 100% AD) +50AS

1) 20 +78 =98 30 (+ 78) =108 +30AS
3) 40 +100.8 =140.8 60 (+ 96) =156 +35AS
5) 60 +124.3 =184.3 90 (+ 113)=203 +40AS
7) 80 +150.65 =230.65 120(+ 131)=251 +45AS
9) 100 +210 =310 150(+ 175)=325 +50AS

18@200)100 +240 =340 150(+ 200)=350 +50AS
18@250)100 +300 =400 150(+ 250)=400 +50AS
18@300)100 +360 =460 150(+ 300)=450 +50AS


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Rengar is life

Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefishfish View Post
Rengar rework- indepth analysis of Rengar's overly complicated q math//review of damage changes.

We all know pre nerfbat Rengar was famous for a few things.

1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth // 3xQ+tiamat/hydra *inb4 can't triple q* see below
2) being able to demolish towers in 3 seconds //AS on q. towerq +hydra push
3) free unavoidable lane poke on a short cooldown. // build fury with e to Empowered W in hard lanes.


prelim "Feels bad" section
=============================
cant q tower at all. just feels bad on top of the attack speed nerf. NEW "trash-tier-feels-bad-BUG": rengar jump-stabs over and over as if

hes going to q the tower, but he doesnt q the tower...

winning "the hunt" event vs khazix is now almost worthless vs gaining normal stacks. Head of Khazix needs +AD or +%damage to be relevant in

my opinion. Old bonetooth necklace +20 stacks was WAY stronger. Kha'zix 4th evolution is WAY stronger.
new Head of Khazix vs old has:
-10 armor pen, -5% cdr, -25 leap range, -1 ferocity on ulty.
+3 seconds thrill of the hunt. "+double movespeed thrill of the hunt"
-ad/lvl, but the fact that its free to buy and takes no item slot nullifies the AD/lvl factor completely.

Rengar empowered Q followed by normal Q used to be instant casting (or after an auto). now theres a .5 sec delay? its a change and it feels bad. =(

SUMMARY OF DATA SECTION.
=============================
1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth. Lets check the damage changes.

damage of New savagery//Old savagery +++ NEW EMP SAVAGERY//OLD +++
LVL1 98 /108 LVL1 150/186
LVL3 140/156 LVL3 202/252
Lvl5 184/203 Lvl5 252/316
LVL7 230/251 LVL7 304/382
LVL9 310/325 LVL9 395/500
LVL18@200ad 340/350 LVL18@200ad 539/550
LVL18@250ad 400/400 LVL18@250ad 621/650
LVL18@300ad 460/450 LVL18@300ad 704/750

The old combo looks like this>> ult, jump in Q, EmpQ, Q again. new combo is a bit slower>> Ult, Q+EmpQ, 4 seconds, Q+EmpQ again.

old Combo (2x-Q. 1xEmpQ) new combo (EmpQ+Q, ult ferocity delay, then Q+EmpQ
***2 second fight***
(Q Burst potential)new Q+EmpQ
vs old Q+EmpQ+Q
damage. new combo / old damage
LVL1 248, 5sec+248 +50%AS / 402 +90 AS...a change of -154
LVL3 342, 5sec+342 +56%AS / 564 +105AS...a change of -222
LVL5 436, 5sec+436 +62%AS / 722 +120AS...a change of -286
LVL7 534, 5sec+534 +68%AS / 884 +135AS...a change of -350
LVL9 705, 5sec+705 +74%AS / 1150+150AS...a change of -445
LVL18@200ad 879, 5sec+879 +101%as/ 1250+150AS...a change of -371
LVL18@200ad 1021, 5sec+1021 +101%as/ 1450+150AS...a change of -429
LVL18@200ad 1164, 5sec+1164 +101%as/ 1650+150AS...a change of -486

***6 second fight***
new Ult+EmpQ+Q+4secs+Q+EmpQvs new Q+Emp
vs Old Ult+Q+EmpQ+Q+5secs+Q
damage
LVL1...a change of -14
LVL3...a change of -36
LVL5...a change of -53
LVL7...a change of -67
LVL8...a change of -65 (-5 damage at L12,+15 at L13)
LVL18@200ad...a change of +158
LVL18@250ad...a change of +192
LVL18@300ad...a change of +228



Conclusion: This pretty much proves what the designers said about Rengar's new burst being trashy, but in a longer fight, AND with a mid-endgame build he actually does more damage than before. I feel that his q took too much nerfbat for the early game. Rengar's 2xQ BURST DAMAGE is nerfed REALLY hard. Assuming a 6 second fight, the damage from old Rengar will break even at LVL12. The new overall attack speed will balance out over the 6 second fight, but is severely punished in shorter fights/harass/trades. THe 33% lower cooldown on new normal Q will not make up for the -attack speed. 50% attack speed is HUGE. Assassin/jungle Rengar is be much less viable due to these changes. In my experience playing new rengar, jungling without attack speed on normal Q feels REAAALLLLLLY SLOW for clears. Laning is hard because of the bola changes and Q not trading well early game. In top lane, Renekton, Nasus, etc will out trade and out sustain your low damage. I'm not really sure where Rengar is viable as he under performs in the jungle and in top lane currently.

At the highest levels/endgame build, new rengar will do MORE damage than old rengar in a 6 second sustained dps fight. THe question is, can that be accomplished easily on a squishy in the middle of a 5v5. probably not. Old rengar dealt his damage instantly and was not easily preventable via CC/reset delays, similar to present day Kha'zix or wukong jumping on your face from stealth. New rengar's ult feels a lot more like Zed's all in. The problem is, other champions are much better assassins or much better fighters...so where does rengar fit in? They know youre coming, It'll take a few seconds before they die and there are ways to CC you off the target//opportunity for heals and escapes, especially with bola getting bodyblocked by a non preferred target.

2) being able to demolish towers in 3 seconds //AS on q. towerq +hydra push
Rengar will have MUCH lower Attack speed bonus from Q at all levels. 40%-76% less attack speed, thus less pushing and less effective trading in lane. in addition to this, his heal is pretty nerfed. =/ the AS change to normal q feels really bad , as Rengar does even less damage than his pre patch "nerfed" state. i do not feel that the changes to his "gains furiosity after ult+movespeed to chase" makes up for losing the 3rd Q on the front end and the AS. In my experience as of late, if you dont instagib the ADC, they flash over a wall or their friends CC you. Cant chase=gg. In his current state, i would not play Rengar in ranked so much, as i feel he under performs early game during lane phase AND in the jungle. what IS viable with new Rengar, is 2xBOLA spam to lock down a squishy while your friends move in to crush the perma-rooted victim. This only works with tanky Rengar as you're going to be initiating/facetanking. Assassin-ish rengar doesnt work so well until
L18+lots of gear.....but then again, id rather have amumu or malphite etc if my job was to lock people down while my team moved in. i know ive said this already, but im not really sure what rengar's job is on a team anymore. inb4 assassin (burst nerfed). inb4 fighter (low trade ability and jungle clear). inb4 tank (pick another champ)

3) Rengar will have a hard time in lane due to the lack of bola harass. the bola being a skillshot really hurts lane Rengar as he will never out trade in lane using Q, meaning that bola is the likely be 1st skill in lane now......and theres no guarantee of damage from a skillshot.

Rengar Q rework math, magic and fairies.
================================================== ===============================
1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth // 3xQ+tiamat/hydra

Rengar has been nerfed even more due to changes to 3x q in the last patch. no insta Q from EmpQ reset feels REALLY BAD. =(
BUT, BUT BLUEFISHFISH!!?? triple q was broken before!!!!11!
NOT SO! Blatant plagarism follows. from "Rengar my love" http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...php?t=4185752#
"""
Breaking down the Rengar Q duration nerf: Triple Q is not gone.
Edit: The changes are going live- hope you're all ready to get your timing right~
Edit 2: I've confirmed in game, it still works.

TLDR(only it's before the post, hah): Triple Q is still possible.

So the duration of Savagery's on next hit buff has been reduced to 2 seconds- down from 6, on the PBE. This is Riot's attempt at removing the "abuse of game mechanics" that is Rengar's triple Q.
To those that do not know, Rengar's triple Q involves ulting while you have between 2-4 ferocity, activating Q2 the instant you hit 5 ferocity and then letting your ferocity generate back to 2-4, jumping at your target then using a mix of Q + W and or E to reach 5 ferocity again to reactivate Q2.

This works because Rengar's ultimate grants him 1 ferocity every 0.75 seconds, up to a maximum of 5. If Rengar frees up his full ferocity bar without breaking his ult (activating Q2), this generation does not stop and continues to slightly fill up the newly empty bar. Anyways, the

Rengar player has between 1.5-5.25 seconds (depending on having 2-4 ferocity when you start) to jump their target in the current iteration.

With the nerf, a Rengar without 14 stacks on their Bonetooth Necklace has 0.5 seconds to jump their target (while a Rengar with 14 stacks has

1.25 seconds) to pull off the triple Q.

I'll step you through it (with the duration nerf).

Rengar on 2 ferocity activates their ult.
After 2.25 seconds the Rengar player activates Q2.
After waiting 1.5 seconds to generate 2 more ferocity, the Rengar jumps their target within a 0.5 second window so the first Q2 buff doesn't time out.
Since Rengar's passive works like a ranged auto attack with no projectile (other than Rengar himself), the Q2 buff is consumed the instant the Rengar right clicks their target (assuming they're in range). Rengar reactivates Q while in the air- he's up to 3 ferocity as he lands.
Rengar casts his W and E- he's back on 5 ferocity.
Rengar murders his target with the third Q.

There's a few ways Riot could have fixed this "abuse of game mechanics", including but not limited to: Thrill of the Hunt stops generating

ferocity when Rengar hits 5 ferocity, adding a cooldown to Rengar's enhanced abilities or making it so activating Q cancels Rengar's ult

(Rengar player has to jump his target before activating Q).
"""
================================================== ========

anyway, on with the math and justification.
================================================== ========
Old Savagery
Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 100% AD)
Attack Speed: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% for 4 seconds.
Empowered Savagery
Active: Savagery deals additional damage equal to 100% of Rengar's attack damage, and he gains increased attack speed equal to double the

normal bonus. Basic and Empowered Savagery's attack speed bonuses can overlap and stack with each other.
Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 200% AD)
Attack Speed: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100%
Stacked Attack Speed Bonus: 90 / 105 / 120 / 135 / 150%

New Savagery
Modified Physical Damage: 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 120 % AD)
Empowered Savagery
Active: Savagery deals modified damage equal to 10 + (10 * level) (+ 150% AD). Additionally, Savagery grants Rengar bonus 47 + (3 * level) %

attack speed and increases his attack damage by 10% for 5 seconds.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
overlap comparison.

new savagery has -10/-20+5%/-30+10%/-40+15%/-50+20% damage
in order to break even with old savagery on flat damage with the %ad ratio you need
NA/+400ad/+300ad / +267ad/ +250ad
this is clearly not possible early game. this is clearly a nerf to q early game. late game it is reasonable to reach 250ad and the levels should be about the same. New empowered Q has 10 + (10*level) (+150% AD). Additionally, Savagery grants Rengar bonus 47 + (3 * level) % attack speed and increases his attack damage by 10% for 5 seconds

EXAMPLE standard gear for damage by level to give a vague idea of what damage should be happening with ad scaling.
LVL1 -78ad no gear/ad runes
LVL3 -96 longsword
LVL5 -113 2xlongsword
LVL7 -131 completed SOTEL (or brutalizer+longsword, earliar doran)
LVL9 -175 completed tiamat
LVL18-200 theoretical end build
LVL18-250 theoretical end build
LVL18-300 theoretical end build

Empowered savagery damage at certain hero levels. assuming leveling q first.
character LEVELS) damage
New Empowered Q Old Empowered Q
1) 20 +150%ad +50%AS +10%damage/5secs 30 (+ 200% AD) +60AS /+90 AS (/stacked AS)
3) 40 +150%ad +56%AS +10%damage/5secs 60 (+ 200% AD) +70AS /+105AS
5) 60 +150%ad +62%AS +10%damage/5secs 90 (+ 200% AD) +80AS /+120AS
7) 80 +150%ad +68%AS +10%damage/5secs 120(+ 200% AD) +90AS /+135AS
9) 100 +150%ad +74%AS +10%damage/5secs 150(+ 200% AD) +100AS/+150AS
18)190 +150%ad +101%as+10%damage/5secs 150(+ 200% AD) +100AS/+150AS

1)20+117 =137 *1.1=150.7 1)30+156 =186
3)40+144 =184 *1.1=202.4 3)60+192 =252
5)60+169.5 =229.5*1.1=252.45 5)90+226 =316
7)80+196.5 =276.5*1.1=304.15 7)120+262=382
9)100+262.5 =362.5*1.1=395.5 9)150+350=500

18@200ad)190+300=490*1.1=539 18@200ad)150+400=550
18@250ad)190+375=565*1.1=621.5 18@250ad)150+500=650
18@300ad)190+450=640*1.1=704 18@300ad)150+600=750

NORMAL savagery damage
New savagery Old savagery
1) 20 +100%ad 30 (+ 100% AD) +30AS
3) 40 +105%ad 60 (+ 100% AD) +35AS
5) 60 +110%ad 90 (+ 100% AD) +40AS
7) 80 +115%ad 120(+ 100% AD) +45AS
9) 100 +120%ad 150(+ 100% AD) +50AS
18)100 +120%ad 150(+ 100% AD) +50AS

1) 20 +78 =98 30 (+ 78) =108 +30AS
3) 40 +100.8 =140.8 60 (+ 96) =156 +35AS
5) 60 +124.3 =184.3 90 (+ 113)=203 +40AS
7) 80 +150.65 =230.65 120(+ 131)=251 +45AS
9) 100 +210 =310 150(+ 175)=325 +50AS

18@200)100 +240 =340 150(+ 200)=350 +50AS
18@250)100 +300 =400 150(+ 250)=400 +50AS
18@300)100 +360 =460 150(+ 300)=450 +50AS
I love numbers and I love you.

Also glad to see you quoted my thread


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CaptainWinget

Junior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefishfish View Post
Rengar rework- indepth analysis of Rengar's overly complicated q math//review of damage changes.

We all know pre nerfbat Rengar was famous for a few things.

1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth // 3xQ+tiamat/hydra *inb4 can't triple q* see below
2) being able to demolish towers in 3 seconds //AS on q. towerq +hydra push
3) free unavoidable lane poke on a short cooldown. // build fury with e to Empowered W in hard lanes.


prelim "Feels bad" section
=============================
cant q tower at all. just feels bad on top of the attack speed nerf. NEW "trash-tier-feels-bad-BUG": rengar jump-stabs over and over as if

hes going to q the tower, but he doesnt q the tower...

winning "the hunt" event vs khazix is now almost worthless vs gaining normal stacks. Head of Khazix needs +AD or +%damage to be relevant in

my opinion. Old bonetooth necklace +20 stacks was WAY stronger. Kha'zix 4th evolution is WAY stronger.
new Head of Khazix vs old has:
-10 armor pen, -5% cdr, -25 leap range, -1 ferocity on ulty.
+3 seconds thrill of the hunt. "+double movespeed thrill of the hunt"
-ad/lvl, but the fact that its free to buy and takes no item slot nullifies the AD/lvl factor completely.

Rengar empowered Q followed by normal Q used to be instant casting (or after an auto). now theres a .5 sec delay? its a change and it feels bad. =(

SUMMARY OF DATA SECTION.
=============================
1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth. Lets check the damage changes.

damage of New savagery//Old savagery +++ NEW EMP SAVAGERY//OLD +++
LVL1 98 /108 LVL1 150/186
LVL3 140/156 LVL3 202/252
Lvl5 184/203 Lvl5 252/316
LVL7 230/251 LVL7 304/382
LVL9 310/325 LVL9 395/500
LVL18@200ad 340/350 LVL18@200ad 539/550
LVL18@250ad 400/400 LVL18@250ad 621/650
LVL18@300ad 460/450 LVL18@300ad 704/750

The old combo looks like this>> ult, jump in Q, EmpQ, Q again. new combo is a bit slower>> Ult, Q+EmpQ, 4 seconds, Q+EmpQ again.

old Combo (2x-Q. 1xEmpQ) new combo (EmpQ+Q, ult ferocity delay, then Q+EmpQ
***2 second fight***
(Q Burst potential)new Q+EmpQ
vs old Q+EmpQ+Q
damage. new combo / old damage
LVL1 248, 5sec+248 +50%AS / 402 +90 AS...a change of -154
LVL3 342, 5sec+342 +56%AS / 564 +105AS...a change of -222
LVL5 436, 5sec+436 +62%AS / 722 +120AS...a change of -286
LVL7 534, 5sec+534 +68%AS / 884 +135AS...a change of -350
LVL9 705, 5sec+705 +74%AS / 1150+150AS...a change of -445
LVL18@200ad 879, 5sec+879 +101%as/ 1250+150AS...a change of -371
LVL18@200ad 1021, 5sec+1021 +101%as/ 1450+150AS...a change of -429
LVL18@200ad 1164, 5sec+1164 +101%as/ 1650+150AS...a change of -486

***6 second fight***
new Ult+EmpQ+Q+4secs+Q+EmpQvs new Q+Emp
vs Old Ult+Q+EmpQ+Q+5secs+Q
damage
LVL1...a change of -14
LVL3...a change of -36
LVL5...a change of -53
LVL7...a change of -67
LVL8...a change of -65 (-5 damage at L12,+15 at L13)
LVL18@200ad...a change of +158
LVL18@250ad...a change of +192
LVL18@300ad...a change of +228



Conclusion: This pretty much proves what the designers said about Rengar's new burst being trashy, but in a longer fight, AND with a mid-endgame build he actually does more damage than before. I feel that his q took too much nerfbat for the early game. Rengar's 2xQ BURST DAMAGE is nerfed REALLY hard. Assuming a 6 second fight, the damage from old Rengar will break even at LVL12. The new overall attack speed will balance out over the 6 second fight, but is severely punished in shorter fights/harass/trades. THe 33% lower cooldown on new normal Q will not make up for the -attack speed. 50% attack speed is HUGE. Assassin/jungle Rengar is be much less viable due to these changes. In my experience playing new rengar, jungling without attack speed on normal Q feels REAAALLLLLLY SLOW for clears. Laning is hard because of the bola changes and Q not trading well early game. In top lane, Renekton, Nasus, etc will out trade and out sustain your low damage. I'm not really sure where Rengar is viable as he under performs in the jungle and in top lane currently.

At the highest levels/endgame build, new rengar will do MORE damage than old rengar in a 6 second sustained dps fight. THe question is, can that be accomplished easily on a squishy in the middle of a 5v5. probably not. Old rengar dealt his damage instantly and was not easily preventable via CC/reset delays, similar to present day Kha'zix or wukong jumping on your face from stealth. New rengar's ult feels a lot more like Zed's all in. The problem is, other champions are much better assassins or much better fighters...so where does rengar fit in? They know youre coming, It'll take a few seconds before they die and there are ways to CC you off the target//opportunity for heals and escapes, especially with bola getting bodyblocked by a non preferred target.

2) being able to demolish towers in 3 seconds //AS on q. towerq +hydra push
Rengar will have MUCH lower Attack speed bonus from Q at all levels. 40%-76% less attack speed, thus less pushing and less effective trading in lane. in addition to this, his heal is pretty nerfed. =/ the AS change to normal q feels really bad , as Rengar does even less damage than his pre patch "nerfed" state. i do not feel that the changes to his "gains furiosity after ult+movespeed to chase" makes up for losing the 3rd Q on the front end and the AS. In my experience as of late, if you dont instagib the ADC, they flash over a wall or their friends CC you. Cant chase=gg. In his current state, i would not play Rengar in ranked so much, as i feel he under performs early game during lane phase AND in the jungle. what IS viable with new Rengar, is 2xBOLA spam to lock down a squishy while your friends move in to crush the perma-rooted victim. This only works with tanky Rengar as you're going to be initiating/facetanking. Assassin-ish rengar doesnt work so well until
L18+lots of gear.....but then again, id rather have amumu or malphite etc if my job was to lock people down while my team moved in. i know ive said this already, but im not really sure what rengar's job is on a team anymore. inb4 assassin (burst nerfed). inb4 fighter (low trade ability and jungle clear). inb4 tank (pick another champ)

3) Rengar will have a hard time in lane due to the lack of bola harass. the bola being a skillshot really hurts lane Rengar as he will never out trade in lane using Q, meaning that bola is the likely be 1st skill in lane now......and theres no guarantee of damage from a skillshot.

Rengar Q rework math, magic and fairies.
================================================== ===============================
1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth // 3xQ+tiamat/hydra

Rengar has been nerfed even more due to changes to 3x q in the last patch. no insta Q from EmpQ reset feels REALLY BAD. =(
BUT, BUT BLUEFISHFISH!!?? triple q was broken before!!!!11!
NOT SO! Blatant plagarism follows. from "Rengar my love" http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...php?t=4185752#
"""
Breaking down the Rengar Q duration nerf: Triple Q is not gone.
Edit: The changes are going live- hope you're all ready to get your timing right~
Edit 2: I've confirmed in game, it still works.

TLDR(only it's before the post, hah): Triple Q is still possible.

So the duration of Savagery's on next hit buff has been reduced to 2 seconds- down from 6, on the PBE. This is Riot's attempt at removing the "abuse of game mechanics" that is Rengar's triple Q.
To those that do not know, Rengar's triple Q involves ulting while you have between 2-4 ferocity, activating Q2 the instant you hit 5 ferocity and then letting your ferocity generate back to 2-4, jumping at your target then using a mix of Q + W and or E to reach 5 ferocity again to reactivate Q2.

This works because Rengar's ultimate grants him 1 ferocity every 0.75 seconds, up to a maximum of 5. If Rengar frees up his full ferocity bar without breaking his ult (activating Q2), this generation does not stop and continues to slightly fill up the newly empty bar. Anyways, the

Rengar player has between 1.5-5.25 seconds (depending on having 2-4 ferocity when you start) to jump their target in the current iteration.

With the nerf, a Rengar without 14 stacks on their Bonetooth Necklace has 0.5 seconds to jump their target (while a Rengar with 14 stacks has

1.25 seconds) to pull off the triple Q.

I'll step you through it (with the duration nerf).

Rengar on 2 ferocity activates their ult.
After 2.25 seconds the Rengar player activates Q2.
After waiting 1.5 seconds to generate 2 more ferocity, the Rengar jumps their target within a 0.5 second window so the first Q2 buff doesn't time out.
Since Rengar's passive works like a ranged auto attack with no projectile (other than Rengar himself), the Q2 buff is consumed the instant the Rengar right clicks their target (assuming they're in range). Rengar reactivates Q while in the air- he's up to 3 ferocity as he lands.
Rengar casts his W and E- he's back on 5 ferocity.
Rengar murders his target with the third Q.

There's a few ways Riot could have fixed this "abuse of game mechanics", including but not limited to: Thrill of the Hunt stops generating

ferocity when Rengar hits 5 ferocity, adding a cooldown to Rengar's enhanced abilities or making it so activating Q cancels Rengar's ult

(Rengar player has to jump his target before activating Q).
"""
================================================== ========

anyway, on with the math and justification.
================================================== ========
Old Savagery
Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 100% AD)
Attack Speed: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% for 4 seconds.
Empowered Savagery
Active: Savagery deals additional damage equal to 100% of Rengar's attack damage, and he gains increased attack speed equal to double the

normal bonus. Basic and Empowered Savagery's attack speed bonuses can overlap and stack with each other.
Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 200% AD)
Attack Speed: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100%
Stacked Attack Speed Bonus: 90 / 105 / 120 / 135 / 150%

New Savagery
Modified Physical Damage: 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 120 % AD)
Empowered Savagery
Active: Savagery deals modified damage equal to 10 + (10 * level) (+ 150% AD). Additionally, Savagery grants Rengar bonus 47 + (3 * level) %

attack speed and increases his attack damage by 10% for 5 seconds.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
overlap comparison.

new savagery has -10/-20+5%/-30+10%/-40+15%/-50+20% damage
in order to break even with old savagery on flat damage with the %ad ratio you need
NA/+400ad/+300ad / +267ad/ +250ad
this is clearly not possible early game. this is clearly a nerf to q early game. late game it is reasonable to reach 250ad and the levels should be about the same. New empowered Q has 10 + (10*level) (+150% AD). Additionally, Savagery grants Rengar bonus 47 + (3 * level) % attack speed and increases his attack damage by 10% for 5 seconds

EXAMPLE standard gear for damage by level to give a vague idea of what damage should be happening with ad scaling.
LVL1 -78ad no gear/ad runes
LVL3 -96 longsword
LVL5 -113 2xlongsword
LVL7 -131 completed SOTEL (or brutalizer+longsword, earliar doran)
LVL9 -175 completed tiamat
LVL18-200 theoretical end build
LVL18-250 theoretical end build
LVL18-300 theoretical end build

Empowered savagery damage at certain hero levels. assuming leveling q first.
character LEVELS) damage
New Empowered Q Old Empowered Q
1) 20 +150%ad +50%AS +10%damage/5secs 30 (+ 200% AD) +60AS /+90 AS (/stacked AS)
3) 40 +150%ad +56%AS +10%damage/5secs 60 (+ 200% AD) +70AS /+105AS
5) 60 +150%ad +62%AS +10%damage/5secs 90 (+ 200% AD) +80AS /+120AS
7) 80 +150%ad +68%AS +10%damage/5secs 120(+ 200% AD) +90AS /+135AS
9) 100 +150%ad +74%AS +10%damage/5secs 150(+ 200% AD) +100AS/+150AS
18)190 +150%ad +101%as+10%damage/5secs 150(+ 200% AD) +100AS/+150AS

1)20+117 =137 *1.1=150.7 1)30+156 =186
3)40+144 =184 *1.1=202.4 3)60+192 =252
5)60+169.5 =229.5*1.1=252.45 5)90+226 =316
7)80+196.5 =276.5*1.1=304.15 7)120+262=382
9)100+262.5 =362.5*1.1=395.5 9)150+350=500

18@200ad)190+300=490*1.1=539 18@200ad)150+400=550
18@250ad)190+375=565*1.1=621.5 18@250ad)150+500=650
18@300ad)190+450=640*1.1=704 18@300ad)150+600=750

NORMAL savagery damage
New savagery Old savagery
1) 20 +100%ad 30 (+ 100% AD) +30AS
3) 40 +105%ad 60 (+ 100% AD) +35AS
5) 60 +110%ad 90 (+ 100% AD) +40AS
7) 80 +115%ad 120(+ 100% AD) +45AS
9) 100 +120%ad 150(+ 100% AD) +50AS
18)100 +120%ad 150(+ 100% AD) +50AS

1) 20 +78 =98 30 (+ 78) =108 +30AS
3) 40 +100.8 =140.8 60 (+ 96) =156 +35AS
5) 60 +124.3 =184.3 90 (+ 113)=203 +40AS
7) 80 +150.65 =230.65 120(+ 131)=251 +45AS
9) 100 +210 =310 150(+ 175)=325 +50AS

18@200)100 +240 =340 150(+ 200)=350 +50AS
18@250)100 +300 =400 150(+ 250)=400 +50AS
18@300)100 +360 =460 150(+ 300)=450 +50AS
Thank you for actually doing this math, I have grown tired of people telling me new Rengar does more damage without incorporation of the lack of attack speed as well as no specification of the duration of the fight. We are not interested in total damage output Scruffy, we want higher damage per second, this is the only thing that matters, whether it be with sheer blunt power or faster hits.


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Cenobite Azaziel

Senior Member

04-06-2014

AS some people said, rengar is a neutered cat with a little bell on his collar "Ring ring ring, I'm coming for you!"

So, with the Q nerfs, can rengar still one shot the carries? If not, you could power up his bola strike. Making 3 bolas or a net when empowered.

I would be happy with skills similar to khaziks evolutions. Q empowered with % life? Nice.
3 Lines of bola dmg as his spikes? Yes please..

The only thing I don't like in rengar is his passive. "I can only jump when I'm in the bushes". I liked the ult remake (speed cat), as it made sense that rengar could jump anytime he used the ult.


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Thunder God Olaf

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-07-2014

Still no progress


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IS14453219c71b37cd51fea

Member

04-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefishfish View Post
Rengar rework- indepth analysis of Rengar's overly complicated q math//review of damage changes.

We all know pre nerfbat Rengar was famous for a few things.

1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth // 3xQ+tiamat/hydra *inb4 can't triple q* see below
2) being able to demolish towers in 3 seconds //AS on q. towerq +hydra push
3) free unavoidable lane poke on a short cooldown. // build fury with e to Empowered W in hard lanes.


prelim "Feels bad" section
=============================
cant q tower at all. just feels bad on top of the attack speed nerf. NEW "trash-tier-feels-bad-BUG": rengar jump-stabs over and over as if

hes going to q the tower, but he doesnt q the tower...

winning "the hunt" event vs khazix is now almost worthless vs gaining normal stacks. Head of Khazix needs +AD or +%damage to be relevant in

my opinion. Old bonetooth necklace +20 stacks was WAY stronger. Kha'zix 4th evolution is WAY stronger.
new Head of Khazix vs old has:
-10 armor pen, -5% cdr, -25 leap range, -1 ferocity on ulty.
+3 seconds thrill of the hunt. "+double movespeed thrill of the hunt"
-ad/lvl, but the fact that its free to buy and takes no item slot nullifies the AD/lvl factor completely.

Rengar empowered Q followed by normal Q used to be instant casting (or after an auto). now theres a .5 sec delay? its a change and it feels bad. =(

SUMMARY OF DATA SECTION.
=============================
1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth. Lets check the damage changes.

damage of New savagery//Old savagery +++ NEW EMP SAVAGERY//OLD +++
LVL1 98 /108 LVL1 150/186
LVL3 140/156 LVL3 202/252
Lvl5 184/203 Lvl5 252/316
LVL7 230/251 LVL7 304/382
LVL9 310/325 LVL9 395/500
LVL18@200ad 340/350 LVL18@200ad 539/550
LVL18@250ad 400/400 LVL18@250ad 621/650
LVL18@300ad 460/450 LVL18@300ad 704/750

The old combo looks like this>> ult, jump in Q, EmpQ, Q again. new combo is a bit slower>> Ult, Q+EmpQ, 4 seconds, Q+EmpQ again.

old Combo (2x-Q. 1xEmpQ) new combo (EmpQ+Q, ult ferocity delay, then Q+EmpQ
***2 second fight***
(Q Burst potential)new Q+EmpQ
vs old Q+EmpQ+Q
damage. new combo / old damage
LVL1 248, 5sec+248 +50%AS / 402 +90 AS...a change of -154
LVL3 342, 5sec+342 +56%AS / 564 +105AS...a change of -222
LVL5 436, 5sec+436 +62%AS / 722 +120AS...a change of -286
LVL7 534, 5sec+534 +68%AS / 884 +135AS...a change of -350
LVL9 705, 5sec+705 +74%AS / 1150+150AS...a change of -445
LVL18@200ad 879, 5sec+879 +101%as/ 1250+150AS...a change of -371
LVL18@200ad 1021, 5sec+1021 +101%as/ 1450+150AS...a change of -429
LVL18@200ad 1164, 5sec+1164 +101%as/ 1650+150AS...a change of -486

***6 second fight***
new Ult+EmpQ+Q+4secs+Q+EmpQvs new Q+Emp
vs Old Ult+Q+EmpQ+Q+5secs+Q
damage
LVL1...a change of -14
LVL3...a change of -36
LVL5...a change of -53
LVL7...a change of -67
LVL8...a change of -65 (-5 damage at L12,+15 at L13)
LVL18@200ad...a change of +158
LVL18@250ad...a change of +192
LVL18@300ad...a change of +228



Conclusion: This pretty much proves what the designers said about Rengar's new burst being trashy, but in a longer fight, AND with a mid-endgame build he actually does more damage than before. I feel that his q took too much nerfbat for the early game. Rengar's 2xQ BURST DAMAGE is nerfed REALLY hard. Assuming a 6 second fight, the damage from old Rengar will break even at LVL12. The new overall attack speed will balance out over the 6 second fight, but is severely punished in shorter fights/harass/trades. THe 33% lower cooldown on new normal Q will not make up for the -attack speed. 50% attack speed is HUGE. Assassin/jungle Rengar is be much less viable due to these changes. In my experience playing new rengar, jungling without attack speed on normal Q feels REAAALLLLLLY SLOW for clears. Laning is hard because of the bola changes and Q not trading well early game. In top lane, Renekton, Nasus, etc will out trade and out sustain your low damage. I'm not really sure where Rengar is viable as he under performs in the jungle and in top lane currently.

At the highest levels/endgame build, new rengar will do MORE damage than old rengar in a 6 second sustained dps fight. THe question is, can that be accomplished easily on a squishy in the middle of a 5v5. probably not. Old rengar dealt his damage instantly and was not easily preventable via CC/reset delays, similar to present day Kha'zix or wukong jumping on your face from stealth. New rengar's ult feels a lot more like Zed's all in. The problem is, other champions are much better assassins or much better fighters...so where does rengar fit in? They know youre coming, It'll take a few seconds before they die and there are ways to CC you off the target//opportunity for heals and escapes, especially with bola getting bodyblocked by a non preferred target.

2) being able to demolish towers in 3 seconds //AS on q. towerq +hydra push
Rengar will have MUCH lower Attack speed bonus from Q at all levels. 40%-76% less attack speed, thus less pushing and less effective trading in lane. in addition to this, his heal is pretty nerfed. =/ the AS change to normal q feels really bad , as Rengar does even less damage than his pre patch "nerfed" state. i do not feel that the changes to his "gains furiosity after ult+movespeed to chase" makes up for losing the 3rd Q on the front end and the AS. In my experience as of late, if you dont instagib the ADC, they flash over a wall or their friends CC you. Cant chase=gg. In his current state, i would not play Rengar in ranked so much, as i feel he under performs early game during lane phase AND in the jungle. what IS viable with new Rengar, is 2xBOLA spam to lock down a squishy while your friends move in to crush the perma-rooted victim. This only works with tanky Rengar as you're going to be initiating/facetanking. Assassin-ish rengar doesnt work so well until
L18+lots of gear.....but then again, id rather have amumu or malphite etc if my job was to lock people down while my team moved in. i know ive said this already, but im not really sure what rengar's job is on a team anymore. inb4 assassin (burst nerfed). inb4 fighter (low trade ability and jungle clear). inb4 tank (pick another champ)

3) Rengar will have a hard time in lane due to the lack of bola harass. the bola being a skillshot really hurts lane Rengar as he will never out trade in lane using Q, meaning that bola is the likely be 1st skill in lane now......and theres no guarantee of damage from a skillshot.

Rengar Q rework math, magic and fairies.
================================================== ===============================
1) Assassin rengar had the chance to instakill someone from stealth // 3xQ+tiamat/hydra

Rengar has been nerfed even more due to changes to 3x q in the last patch. no insta Q from EmpQ reset feels REALLY BAD. =(
BUT, BUT BLUEFISHFISH!!?? triple q was broken before!!!!11!
NOT SO! Blatant plagarism follows. from "Rengar my love" http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...php?t=4185752#
"""
Breaking down the Rengar Q duration nerf: Triple Q is not gone.
Edit: The changes are going live- hope you're all ready to get your timing right~
Edit 2: I've confirmed in game, it still works.

TLDR(only it's before the post, hah): Triple Q is still possible.

So the duration of Savagery's on next hit buff has been reduced to 2 seconds- down from 6, on the PBE. This is Riot's attempt at removing the "abuse of game mechanics" that is Rengar's triple Q.
To those that do not know, Rengar's triple Q involves ulting while you have between 2-4 ferocity, activating Q2 the instant you hit 5 ferocity and then letting your ferocity generate back to 2-4, jumping at your target then using a mix of Q + W and or E to reach 5 ferocity again to reactivate Q2.

This works because Rengar's ultimate grants him 1 ferocity every 0.75 seconds, up to a maximum of 5. If Rengar frees up his full ferocity bar without breaking his ult (activating Q2), this generation does not stop and continues to slightly fill up the newly empty bar. Anyways, the

Rengar player has between 1.5-5.25 seconds (depending on having 2-4 ferocity when you start) to jump their target in the current iteration.

With the nerf, a Rengar without 14 stacks on their Bonetooth Necklace has 0.5 seconds to jump their target (while a Rengar with 14 stacks has

1.25 seconds) to pull off the triple Q.

I'll step you through it (with the duration nerf).

Rengar on 2 ferocity activates their ult.
After 2.25 seconds the Rengar player activates Q2.
After waiting 1.5 seconds to generate 2 more ferocity, the Rengar jumps their target within a 0.5 second window so the first Q2 buff doesn't time out.
Since Rengar's passive works like a ranged auto attack with no projectile (other than Rengar himself), the Q2 buff is consumed the instant the Rengar right clicks their target (assuming they're in range). Rengar reactivates Q while in the air- he's up to 3 ferocity as he lands.
Rengar casts his W and E- he's back on 5 ferocity.
Rengar murders his target with the third Q.

There's a few ways Riot could have fixed this "abuse of game mechanics", including but not limited to: Thrill of the Hunt stops generating

ferocity when Rengar hits 5 ferocity, adding a cooldown to Rengar's enhanced abilities or making it so activating Q cancels Rengar's ult

(Rengar player has to jump his target before activating Q).
"""
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anyway, on with the math and justification.
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Old Savagery
Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 100% AD)
Attack Speed: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% for 4 seconds.
Empowered Savagery
Active: Savagery deals additional damage equal to 100% of Rengar's attack damage, and he gains increased attack speed equal to double the

normal bonus. Basic and Empowered Savagery's attack speed bonuses can overlap and stack with each other.
Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 200% AD)
Attack Speed: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100%
Stacked Attack Speed Bonus: 90 / 105 / 120 / 135 / 150%

New Savagery
Modified Physical Damage: 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 120 % AD)
Empowered Savagery
Active: Savagery deals modified damage equal to 10 + (10 * level) (+ 150% AD). Additionally, Savagery grants Rengar bonus 47 + (3 * level) %

attack speed and increases his attack damage by 10% for 5 seconds.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
overlap comparison.

new savagery has -10/-20+5%/-30+10%/-40+15%/-50+20% damage
in order to break even with old savagery on flat damage with the %ad ratio you need
NA/+400ad/+300ad / +267ad/ +250ad
this is clearly not possible early game. this is clearly a nerf to q early game. late game it is reasonable to reach 250ad and the levels should be about the same. New empowered Q has 10 + (10*level) (+150% AD). Additionally, Savagery grants Rengar bonus 47 + (3 * level) % attack speed and increases his attack damage by 10% for 5 seconds

EXAMPLE standard gear for damage by level to give a vague idea of what damage should be happening with ad scaling.
LVL1 -78ad no gear/ad runes
LVL3 -96 longsword
LVL5 -113 2xlongsword
LVL7 -131 completed SOTEL (or brutalizer+longsword, earliar doran)
LVL9 -175 completed tiamat
LVL18-200 theoretical end build
LVL18-250 theoretical end build
LVL18-300 theoretical end build

Empowered savagery damage at certain hero levels. assuming leveling q first.
character LEVELS) damage
New Empowered Q Old Empowered Q
1) 20 +150%ad +50%AS +10%damage/5secs 30 (+ 200% AD) +60AS /+90 AS (/stacked AS)
3) 40 +150%ad +56%AS +10%damage/5secs 60 (+ 200% AD) +70AS /+105AS
5) 60 +150%ad +62%AS +10%damage/5secs 90 (+ 200% AD) +80AS /+120AS
7) 80 +150%ad +68%AS +10%damage/5secs 120(+ 200% AD) +90AS /+135AS
9) 100 +150%ad +74%AS +10%damage/5secs 150(+ 200% AD) +100AS/+150AS
18)190 +150%ad +101%as+10%damage/5secs 150(+ 200% AD) +100AS/+150AS

1)20+117 =137 *1.1=150.7 1)30+156 =186
3)40+144 =184 *1.1=202.4 3)60+192 =252
5)60+169.5 =229.5*1.1=252.45 5)90+226 =316
7)80+196.5 =276.5*1.1=304.15 7)120+262=382
9)100+262.5 =362.5*1.1=395.5 9)150+350=500

18@200ad)190+300=490*1.1=539 18@200ad)150+400=550
18@250ad)190+375=565*1.1=621.5 18@250ad)150+500=650
18@300ad)190+450=640*1.1=704 18@300ad)150+600=750

NORMAL savagery damage
New savagery Old savagery
1) 20 +100%ad 30 (+ 100% AD) +30AS
3) 40 +105%ad 60 (+ 100% AD) +35AS
5) 60 +110%ad 90 (+ 100% AD) +40AS
7) 80 +115%ad 120(+ 100% AD) +45AS
9) 100 +120%ad 150(+ 100% AD) +50AS
18)100 +120%ad 150(+ 100% AD) +50AS

1) 20 +78 =98 30 (+ 78) =108 +30AS
3) 40 +100.8 =140.8 60 (+ 96) =156 +35AS
5) 60 +124.3 =184.3 90 (+ 113)=203 +40AS
7) 80 +150.65 =230.65 120(+ 131)=251 +45AS
9) 100 +210 =310 150(+ 175)=325 +50AS

18@200)100 +240 =340 150(+ 200)=350 +50AS
18@250)100 +300 =400 150(+ 250)=400 +50AS
18@300)100 +360 =460 150(+ 300)=450 +50AS


Sad thing is that it took less than a week for a forumer to figure this out, while months of " " testing " on the pbe were not enough to even notice Q's bugs.