Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

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Smoge

Junior Member

04-05-2014

Rengar will never be balanced so long as he has his current kit. It's just like the old heimer, he will always he hilariously weak or hideously broken. His ult is so insanely powerful and snowbally that he will always be either far too strong or far too weak as long as he has it in his kit.


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SirIsaacLime

Senior Member

04-05-2014

I tested how his ult's Fury generation works when you use it with max Fury, and there is a very fine line. If you use an embowered ability an instant before you jump, you gain all five Fury and can still get the jump off (I assume it's the ~0.5 fade-in time on his passive). If you use it mid jump or later, you'll only gain four Fury. It's a minor usability / best use case issue, but it might be worth a small fix?


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Canstainer

Senior Member

04-05-2014

What about the critical hit removed in hisQ?
Rengar Do every damage with his Q ...

Explain ?


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DirtyGardenTool

Junior Member

04-05-2014

I am going to be as constructive as possible and I hope this gets a response or at least someone else who is as constructive.
Starting with the trinket: At first I liked the trinket, however I noticed what many people are saying is true about the trinket. In the situation of Rengar V. Kha it's more of stopping kha get his fourth evolution. I mean honestly in the end you might get 20 assist and kills combined and it does not have as much impact as Kha'zix's 4th evolution. This isn't something HUGE or something I care about but some other players might.

Q&EQ:Honestly it scales meh into late game and I'll explain why but it also feels slug-ish/clunky not sure how exactly but it feels a bit odd honestly it might just be me. His empower Q feels even worse. Here's why:Early game it feels really basic I mean it's not too bad, the reason his Q later on becomes worse and Empowered Q felt bad is because later on if you're not building a lot of AD his Q(basic) does not deal much damage. Since it was stated that he wasn't meant to be an assassin by Jag, why make it scale so high off of ad? I suggest giving it high base damage to compensate for him having to build more like a bruiser and reduce the ratio. Empowered Q felt worse because it didn't feel Empowering. The problem is the same as his regular Q especially for bruisers, the ad bonus is nice but in all honesty here a conflict thing with his kit when it comes to Empowered Q&E, see with Q which is supposed to be "damage" feels weaker if not equal to Empowered E which is also utility which causes a huge problem. If the base damages of both Empowered Q and regular Q go up and maybe lightly tap the scaling if you want him to be a bruiser, boost the scaling up if you really want him to be an assassin.

Rengar's W: I honestly love this skill, it feels nice, strong and scales well into the game, problem is most of his skills feel really weak early, so when you level anything last which will always make E be scaled last because the most use of it now is the slow or the snare it feels bad as a normal skill. His Heal is really nice and I really don't have a problem with it.

Rengar's E: His empowered E is REALLY good for starters, the damage and the snare is great, it is a very high risk and high reward type of move which I'm alright with to an extent. For starters, rengar's regular e range is nice but it is not reliable harass and makes him an extremely all in champ and it feels like I'm playing fiora which is never a good thing to say, this applies strictly to top rengar, for jungle rengar this skill is sort of elise's E however you NEED the stacks in order to gank effectively which may be a problem, I mean they're both: if it hits, it works so I can't really comment on that. Slightly annoying thing that happens: They're in range but with the missile speed and cast time they can easily move out of the way also if you hit someone at max range it doesn't do THAT much unless a brush is around. Also: When leveling up in the top lane I don't really feel like leveling this skill, mostly because it feels useless, completely useless in lane for most of the game unless using it to last hit cs from far away or trying to harass while they are under turret. Suggestions: Raise the base damage boosting the idea of a bruiser rengar/tank rengar over the assassin. Remove the cast time(make it like his w where he doesn't stop to roar) or increase the missile speed. Here's another suggestion that will tie into his ultimate: Make his bolas give him movement speed(will explain in the ultimate section)

R: I am kind of split with this because from what I understood the rework was to make him an assassin with counterplay but now it's being suggested that he is supposed to be a bruiser. I'm alright with the move speed honestly but it should be either a large movement speed boost because 1k range for notification feels like a bit much. Also before the rework was released the purpose for his ultimate giving him a move speed boost after he unstealthed was for him to get away after killing an enemy, his movement speed buff doesn't help him do that anymore since he is now being shoved into a bruiser role which takes up the whole buff time in order to kill the target still leaving him in a sticky situation more so since the team already knows he's coming AND it takes the time of the movement speed buff to kill the target not leaving any for him to run away or get away(which is why I suggested the e movement speed buff[and I meant when hitting a champion]). His ultimate doesn't feel right anymore either since he is no longer an assassin what's the point of this ultimate? it's not that good of an engaging move considering people will know when he's coming in and he has a short timeframe to do so. So it's no longer a useful move to get away with since jag stated himself that Rengar is more of a 4-5 second killing champion now, it's not that great of an initiation, and he can't really use it to assassinate anymore since you know he's not that good at assassinating people at all. Suggestions: Lower the range of notification, increase the movespeed buff entering the stealth, increase the duration for the move speed by a bit(when exiting stealth).I should say: I am not saying pull ALL of these things in at once I mean some of these alone or a combination may make this rework better[I mean this for all suggestions] or make the champion in general feel better. Though I will admit I do not like the idea of a bruiser having an assassin like ultimate,(more suggestions) maybe he can get a damage buff when coming out of stealth, maybe when he comes out of ulti he can mark his prey or something of that sort increasing damage dealt by him to marked target, kind of like xin zhao's debuff.

I hope this helps with some ideas to help improve rengar or give others an idea for suggestions. Side note: with split pushing I understand the nerf in that but on-top of killing his split push(which I completely agree with), his ability to kill champions feel lackluster at best.


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Saelani

Senior Member

04-05-2014

I just cannot believe where Renagr sits right now. I have my thoughts about this is champion feedback. All i will say now is... Worst. Rework. Ever.


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CaptainWinget

Junior Member

04-05-2014

The problem with Rengar right now is identity. Riot had a problem with him being a split push assassin. When you look at his kit I see Q and R look like assassination abilities that perfectly couple together. When I look at his W I see the concept of a bruiser or tank jumping into a big teamfight. When you look at the new E it is more beneficial to use it in a duel rather than a teamfight so you can land it on a target you actually want to kill rather than a tank or random minion that blocks the bola. Riot pick a direction am I going to excel in a skirmish or a teamfight? Change of the bola's targeting system has entirely depleted Rengar of any poke in lane environments and now encourage thoughtless leveling of W for trade and sustain or straight up all in confrontations. As I see it now Riot, Rengar's main abilities Q and R which are his true identity give him an assassin side we fell in love with. The problems I have experienced with bruiser Rengar is he is not like Udyr or Jax. These bruisers will out-duel (and now out-split push) you if you build bruiser because to output damage as bruiser Rengar you need to build so much more damage items, which makes you squishy. This leaves me with tank Rengar which is boring and doesn't do any damage at all and lastly assassin Rengar which is incredibly unreliable due to the Q changes. In short a direction of what you want this champ has to be chosen and pursued; now the other problem is this change of role has the major problem of killing what attracted so many people to the champion originally. In short to make this rework successful you need to make him a tanky assassin again without an escape or a bruiser/tank which will enrage the majority of the community, otherwise he remains as a champion that has the option to pursue different roles but is truly not viable at anything. Honestly Rengar assassin was really something special for top lane, because he was one of the only assassins who was picked for top lane rather than mid. Right now top lane is getting even more tanky and boring. The removal of assassin Rengar is a step in the direction towards a tanky meta which most players are getting really tired of. Lastly I am sorry for those that do not like to have to put in the effort to deal with fed Rengar but if I recall fed Zeds, le Blancs, Katarinas....etc required special attention too.


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TheNoodleNinja

Junior Member

04-05-2014

I have some ideas about how to make Rengar playable again without adc and apc mains crying that he's an unfair champion because he can snowball super hard off their mistakes and make the rest of the game a living hell for them.



Q- I see a lot of people complaining that it feels super weak, but please understand that it was probably intended. I just wish his early game wasn't so difficult and his heal was better than it is to counteract him being tossed around in lane because he can't trade early. I'm fine with people not wanting to be cheesed at level 2, but in return I'd like to actually have a chance to do what I'm supposed to which is to assassinate your carries at some point. (This should also work on towers again, maybe without the attackspeed buff, but definately the damage. So many other champions can splitpush super hard.)

W- See the new passive idea I've written. I feel like his heal has been buffed from where it used to be, but with the changes to his q he's not really obnoxious in trades anymore and his kill potential while being in lane building damage isn't really there if you never get to your powerspike because you're always forced to use a heal that never quite keeps you comfortably healthy when a Shyvanna or Jax is mashing you into your turret. I'm all for Rengar not being able to cheese people super early if his late game is still good, but I'd really like it if you made the laning phase not quite as terrifying before I actually have damage. Maybe make it scale really well early so it will keep your head above water but have it scale kind of meh late game when you're relying on killing champions instead of simply trying not to be killed by them.

E- I don't dislike his e, it's pretty cool actually. I just wish the cooldown was lower so when I'm being zoned from my minions at early levels because most other top laners will beat my ass I can use them to try and snipe minions more often and get more ferocity to keep myself out of the "I'm going to dive on you and get out with 3/4 health if you don't immediately leave lane, k thx bye" range I always find myself in.

R- I like it I guess. the ferocity generation after you landed thing was kind of weird, but I understand it now. You don't have any escapes and his cooldowns on his w and e are kind of long so most of the time you used to jump in, kill a carry and then die if your team didn't follow up perfectly. As for the warning system on his ultimate, I don't actually mind it but I feel like it needs some tweaking. The idea you proposed where the warning indicator wont show up if Rengar wouldn't have been in vision while unstealthed is healthy. He can still leap, but at least you'll know it's coming and should have time to react.

-Passive: He could gain ferocity with basic attacks and when he uses unempowered abilities (similar to how Tryndamere can build up rage quickly by spinning through a minion wave) and then have it cap based on champion level or something. Then you could change the way his empowered w heal works without it being broken. This would make Rengar a more consistent champion as he could max his w to get a greater value out of his heal if he was in a difficult lane at the expense of not doing a great deal of damage with his q (which he doesn't really do anyway until late game after the rework). Another idea would be to make it a charged ability where you hold down his w for 3 seconds lets say and then you heal for 3 ferocity bars worth and keep the other two in the event you feel you're about to be dove by that damned Jax that has been abusing you for the last few minutes and need to build stacks quickly to snare him.



I feel like you could please both crowds here if you changed his ferocity and heal system. I admit getting cheesed by Rengar at level 2 wasn't fun and it just made the rest of the game unpleasant. That being said, the majority of Rengar players aren't wizards and anyone around their skill level can make it a nightmare to play him when his early game is as bad and punishable as it is. I'm fine with him being a late game champion, I just wish it wasn't so frustrating to try and get to the late game. Obviously all these proposed changes would be a lot of work, but I feel like leaving Rengar the way he is and just tweaking his numbers isn't really going to fix the problem. These changes would also theoretically help jungle Rengar too. You could decide how many stacks you wanted to gank with and you'd be much healthier while clearing the jungle if they made the heal a lot better in the early game.



Side note, please understand that I love Rengar and was a big fan of cheesing people myself. That being said, I can understand how so many people hated him because I've also been cheesed by many Rengars. Unless you're a Rengar main, he's really hard to stop from snowballing. Rengar scales into the late game better now than he did before, the problem is that it's incredibly difficult to still build damage when everyone can slap you so hard early game without you being able to retaliate much. Assassins who have super strong early game and then snowball into oblivion are hard to deal with. While I'm not saying assassins ruin the game, I do think they should take a while before they go and melt anything that isn't a Mundo or Shyvanna. If he's changed this way, we still get to play the obnoxious kitty man and the squishies actually have a chance.


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Rengar is life

Member

04-05-2014

As I said, I will continue to bring this up until it gets addressed.

Why is Rengar's splitpushing important? Because Rengar is a champion devoted to all ining. Do you know what happens if you fall behind? You can't all in. Rengar has no secondary goal. All you can do now is jump in again and pray that maybe this time you'll actually win- you won't, but because you have nothing else to do there's no reason not to. It sucks even more because you made him so level-oriented that falling behind the XP curve means you should surrender unless someone on your team is excessively fed.

Why are Rengar's competitors (Shyv, Trynd, Trundle, Renekton etc) allowed to keep their splitpushing when Rengar loses his?

Tryndamere and Shyvana are MUCH safer than Rengar when splitpushing. Splitpushing was one of Rengar's major strengths that you completely scrapped- he lost a spot on MANY MANY team comps because of this.

He also lost his spot on every other team comp because now he brings nothing someone else doesn't bring.


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CaptainWinget

Junior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rengar is life View Post
As I said, I will continue to bring this up until it gets addressed.

Why is Rengar's splitpushing important? Because Rengar is a champion devoted to all ining. Do you know what happens if you fall behind? You can't all in. Rengar has no secondary goal. All you can do now is jump in again and pray that maybe this time you'll actually win- you won't, but because you have nothing else to do there's no reason not to. It sucks even more because you made him so level-oriented that falling behind the XP curve means you should surrender unless someone on your team is excessively fed.

Why are Rengar's competitors (Shyv, Trynd, Trundle, Renekton etc) allowed to keep their splitpushing when Rengar loses his?

Tryndamere and Shyvana are MUCH safer than Rengar when splitpushing. Splitpushing was one of Rengar's major strengths that you completely scrapped- he lost a spot on MANY MANY team comps because of this.

He also lost his spot on every other team comp because now he brings nothing someone else doesn't bring.
You are absolutely right they had a problem with him being binary. If he was fed he was hunting the ADC. If he was behind he was hunting towers. Now if he is fed he still has to attempt assassinations which are now so often unsuccessful it is embarrassing. If he is behind he is absolutely worthless and now has begun to feed, only made worse by the incredibly scary, weak early game they gave him.


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Fishywtf

Member

04-05-2014

Okay so I'm starting to like this rework. Been playing LOTS of games... Here are the problems

1. Buggy Q, cancels a lot, no damage on bush jump, and slow animation
2. E needs to fire a bit faster
3. W scaling off ap for damage is bad because no one builds ap. Since W is defense orientated why not have the damage be scaled with hp so when building tanky you'd still have a source of damage.
4. Remove the ultimate indicator it's just... bleh

these are the main problems i see, when things are finished rengar will hopefully feel solid and also jungling is better now if max e for ganking. starting to go positive with rengo now

new rengo is stronger because you can have 3 emp q's now. start with 5 ferocity ulti. jump hit emp q, hit all 3 abilites, gain 2 ferocity because of ult hit 2nd emp q, gain last 3 ferocity and hit 2 more abilities and go for the 3rd emp q. since now rengar can stick to an enemy it's easier to pull this off and this mainly works when you have at least 30% cdr. could call it a longer than usual triple q or longer than usual quadra q lol.