@Xelnath About the possible changes for Lulu in the future.

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Lichblade

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labcown View Post
If this is the problem with Lulu, what does that say of Nidalee? She's problematic in the same way you just described Lulu, harasses an opponent into leaving lane while maintaining a high level of safety, even more so than Lulu. The harass with Nidalee is even worse, it only takes one or two Qs to shove an opponent out of lane.
because Statikk believes in dodge the pink wards and CC for spears.


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N49

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
We're definitely going to try much harder to find room for these off builds to work,

Taric top revival when?


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ScholarUrf

Senior Member

04-02-2014

I am really glad to see this. I understand that mid lulu has become a problem but super happy to see that you guys are remembering to think about the impact these nerfs will have on the suppordle.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

04-02-2014

The thing that I think makes lulu so overbearing is how much of her damage is guaranteed. She puts pix on, which is undodgeable, then she uses glitterlance which is ostensibly a skillshot but when it's on an actual champ it might as well be a targeted ability. Have you thought about adding a travel time to the help! pix so that people could at least see the e burst coming? Or maybe moving pix a bit further away from the target's character model so there's a more defined counterplay when the glitterlance does happen other than simply eating her harass?

To be honest I think lulu is probably still really viable in bot lane right now because with a kit likes hers its hard to ever be unviable. Probably the reason people think she's unviable there is the predominance of kill lane supports currently (leona/thresh) and the simple fact that when a champ can play two roles, they are bound to better at one more than the other, making them look weaker in the other role in comparison. Wukong for example is still an excellent top laner, but he seems to be played exclusively in the jungle these days.


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Furi Kuri II

Member

04-02-2014

I think Riot forgot Lulu is played as a support too, I guess Ill only play thresh now :/


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Furi Kuri II

Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
We also largely believed that nerfing her Q base damage would cripple her viability as a Support, but we may be wrong on that?
You crippled her in this patch anyway... So...


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Pryotra

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Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
It's definitely something we're adopting much more as we have continued to grow and learn while working on LoL.

Sometimes we will have to outright push a champion out of an off-role because of the game health problems they present and the costs / tradeoffs we would have to make to their primary role to make the off-role healhty. We're definitely going to try much harder to find room for these off builds to work, but I can't promise that we will always be able to deliver on that.
Well, I think you are finally ready to hear this. Hopefully you are still following the thread.

Top lane, a lane usually reserved for melee fighters, is seeing an increasing amount of ranged champions. Champions like urgot, quinn, vayne, and ryze, to name a few. These champions are coming to top lane, because they can no longer compete in their original environment. This means they must search for a new place to lane, and since naturally Ranged > melee, top is an ideal choice. In order to compete with this new set of threats, the "fighter problem" comes into play. Top lane bullies must be kings to the extent where they can compensate for the lack of range. This usually means dashes/blinks and hard CC. However, when you consider some of these champions either have disengage or hard CC, you start to realize that the problem becomes exasperated. They either stay in lane, or become an off jungler/roamer, and only come back to lane to hold onto the tower/sneak up on a pushed opponent.

In general though, this problem intensifies when you send someone who is competent in their arena to come and play in top. Lets use syndra as an example. Syndra does fine in mid lane. She can hold her own. However, send her top lane for whatever reason, and she will likely decimate her opponent. He can't farm, because she will q him. can't really even hug tower, as the stun can reach well under the tower from outside it's range. It would require a jungler to save top lane, essentially stacking the lane in a 2v1. If Syndra can hold her lane without feeding either of them, then what ends up happening is what you see when 1 team has a jungler and another doesn't. Other lanes get increased pressure, which allows for easier team ganks up top for syndra. Other lanes have syndra's team pushed to tower, and eventually cave in due to the weight.

So what is the solution? Well, I see 2 ways to solve this. 1, go ahead and enforce the meta, giving the offending parties a way back home and let the bruisers go back to top in peace, or 2, give bruisers some cc related items. "you mean, like randuin's omen?" NO. That is a tank item. I'm more thinking a new expansion off of hexdrinker, that instead of a tiny magic sheild, gives you an activatable Magic sheild with a fair size and relatively low CD. An item that gives a Temp Auto attack sheild, or activatable minithornmail effect. And not just for AD, but AP bruisers as well. Also, make a new dorans items with defenses. Not doran's sheild, but a new one that gives a small amount of resists. lets say 15 Armor and MR, with a little regen tied to a passive that encourages harassment(think like a weak fiora passive).

But how does that fix the lane? Well, I specifically mentioned hexdrinker for a reason. It is fairly cheap, and rushable. Make the upgrade a small amount of gold, like say 300. No real stat increases, but certainly a great active that adds counter play into counter building. This allows lanes to adapt better to losing situations across the rift, and addresses the snowball issue in a new way, which still exists to some extent. Of course, due to the low stats, it becomes a choice on whether to sell the item later for something to compete statwise, or keep it for its cool active.

"WOW Pryotra, that sure seems OP and drastic. Why would riot do this?" Simply put, this game needs better ways to react to losing scenarios, and it needs a way to do it without simply tossing stats around on the cheap. I feel the best way to do that is to hand losing lanes better survival utility that doesn't involve blinks or movement impairing CC. If renekton, for example, Dives and gets the stun on a ryze, he shouldn't have a way to not get auto f*cked for getting in range. He could activate his MR shield, absorb a fair portion of ryze's rotation, and be able to trade with equal room for skill.


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Furi Kuri II

Member

04-02-2014

Up, for Riot bs damage control.


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Morzas

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
When we say overly "reliable," we really just mean we think the champion is too good against too many things. Mid lane Lulu wins the majority of her lane matchups and outright crushes many of them.

That is a lot different than being reliable as a protector or source of CC for her teammates, we're fine with that. We just don't like her being able to have such a huge advantage in lane against almost any champion.

I guess our take is that mid lane Lulu should be taken as a way to give a ton of Movement Speed to an ally and a way to protect a high priority target on her team (or synergize with an initiator for a wombo combo).

The problem isn't that Lulu doesn't die in the lane, it's that she consistently harasses out her opponents and forces them to back or risk dying while maintaining her relatively high safety.
Has Live Design taken a look at Athene's Unholy Grail? I think that item is at least partially guilty for the problems we're seeing in mid lane. If you don't see where I'm coming from (any time I bring this up, people dismiss me) consider this thought experiment: what would happen to top lane if there were an item that had an easy build path and gave AD, Armor, practically infinite mana and 20% CDR?


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TiberiusAudley

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Adjudicator

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
That's a pretty good point. Our main thought process around nerfing E damage was that it was the most un-interactive part of her kit (click a dude, deal damage to dude) and that ultimately we would like to move power from there to other parts of her kit that have more interesting gameplay.

We also largely believed that nerfing her Q base damage would cripple her viability as a Support, but we may be wrong on that?
If the problem is its interactivity, wouldn't it make more sense, rather than nerfing the damage and utility values of her E to simply nerf the range (and possibly give a small compensatory buff to the range of Q instead)?

Reducing her E's range would require her to get up closer to activate (sometimes even potentially burning her W if she wants to use it directly on an enemy champion) thereby increasing windows for enemy champions to retaliate.

Along with that change you could potentially make the missile speed of Glitterlance decrease as it travels -- encouraging her to try to hit an E+Q combo rather than snipe with a max range Q).

These two changes wouldn't affect her power level specifically while increasing the interactivity in dealing with her in lane.