AP Ryze: Toggle the Mage!

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T0ggle

Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDive View Post
1
Are you 100% sure that you didn't already max tear in those cases? Because AS has the same 600 mana limit you already had on tear... Think about it, I can imagine not maxing tear has something to do with only using 2 skills. (i presume ulti doesn't trigger tear, but i'm far from sure)

2
I see your point, but I find LackOfCertainty's argument more convincing. Not saying this build doesn't work, I just think 1 point in spell flux would make it better.
1.I didn't even know that AS had the same 600limit as tear, thats quite funny, because it doesn't say it has a max just every 3 seconds gains mana. I suppose that brings things into a whole new perspective.

2.I've tryd spell flux before, thats the reason I posted this guide the way I did, spell flux didn't put out enough damage, nor harassing powers to kill enemys. I love the burst I get from just plain snare overloard.
So aside from that, I got nothing.


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IceDive

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0ggle View Post
1.I didn't even know that AS had the same 600limit as tear, thats quite funny, because it doesn't say it has a max just every 3 seconds gains mana. I suppose that brings things into a whole new perspective.

2.I've tryd spell flux before, thats the reason I posted this guide the way I did, spell flux didn't put out enough damage, nor harassing powers to kill enemys. I love the burst I get from just plain snare overloard.
So aside from that, I got nothing.

1
glad to have been of help. I'm pretty sure of this, but doesn't hurt to check with somone who is more knowledgable than me...

2
Since I haven't playtested this, I should just shut up I guess. Just fin it really hard to imagine.. Well, it's been discussed...


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crimsonlyre

Senior Member

01-07-2010

First off, Ryze was the first character I bought- I love him as a heavy burst hit-n-run mage.

My strategy, which seems to differ from yours is always to rune prison before hitting ult. When I face other Ryze's it is so clear when they hit desperate power that it usually gives me more than enough time to retreat enough for their spells not to land... then it's a wasted ult. And I believe the dot of the prison will increase if your AP goes up, so really only the first tick is lower (I could be totally wrong).

The range on prison is not that great, nor is overload. After you have someone prisoned, then you're free to ult+spell flux+overload. Level 3 prison is more than enough to make sure these all land on the target. Which is why I stop there. The range on spell flux is noticeably longer than overload too. Which makes it, imo, a better harassing skill. If your faced with someone else such as Kayle who has a superior ranged nuke at the same range or higher, it's easy to become the harassed.

Additionally its superior range is vital when trying to finish somebody off. I have gotten countless finishing kills with spell flux because of it. Retreating to their turret only to have it bounce between their teammate is lulz.

I go:
First point SF
Prison to lvl 3
Overload usually a lvl higher than SF

All of his skills are important to a Ryze rotation (Prison-Ult-Spell Flux-Overload), so keeping any one lower hinders his burst dps for me.

Because SF will do more damage and seriously lower the targets MR if you hit them 3 times, if I have prison maxed I usually hit them with that then go to melee range as i cast my ult, and hit SF+Overload. Definite burst in that.

Item build seems similar to what I go with, bar getting Archangels earlier.


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T0ggle

Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimsonlyre View Post
First off, Ryze was the first character I bought- I love him as a heavy burst hit-n-run mage.

My strategy, which seems to differ from yours is always to rune prison before hitting ult. When I face other Ryze's it is so clear when they hit desperate power that it usually gives me more than enough time to retreat enough for their spells not to land... then it's a wasted ult. And I believe the dot of the prison will increase if your AP goes up, so really only the first tick is lower (I could be totally wrong).

The range on prison is not that great, nor is overload. After you have someone prisoned, then you're free to ult+spell flux+overload. Level 3 prison is more than enough to make sure these all land on the target. Which is why I stop there. The range on spell flux is noticeably longer than overload too. Which makes it, imo, a better harassing skill. If your faced with someone else such as Kayle who has a superior ranged nuke at the same range or higher, it's easy to become the harassed.

Additionally its superior range is vital when trying to finish somebody off. I have gotten countless finishing kills with spell flux because of it. Retreating to their turret only to have it bounce between their teammate is lulz.

I go:
First point SF
Prison to lvl 3
Overload usually a lvl higher than SF

All of his skills are important to a Ryze rotation (Prison-Ult-Spell Flux-Overload), so keeping any one lower hinders his burst dps for me.

Because SF will do more damage and seriously lower the targets MR if you hit them 3 times, if I have prison maxed I usually hit them with that then go to melee range as i cast my ult, and hit SF+Overload. Definite burst in that.

Item build seems similar to what I go with, bar getting Archangels earlier.
But my point here is that spell flux doesn't deal enough damage and costs more mana, in order for spell flux to do more damage, it needs to hit the same target 3 times, I do around 120damage overload level 1, and level 1 spellflux is 50+40=90 wich only deals more damage if it hits the target twice, also costs 15more mana.

I guess you can base this on luck, if you let lucky, the same spell flux will hit your target twice, in this case, spell flux is the better path, but in my case overload costs less for more.

Edit* I just went 2 games with a very good singe laning partner
I was able to harass with snare overload, then singe would run in, toss we'd both block him from running back then i'd unload my spells on him again for a kill when they refreshed cooldown. I tryd this a second time with spell flux instead of overload this time, spell flux bounced off minions, did only 50damage to the enemy champion, not enough for us to actualy kill him. But the orb did manage to hit the other champion, so I suppose it was great for an aoe?
I'd rather go for my overload nuke snare method, spell flux has its advantages but, it all depends.


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Tarion

Senior Member

01-07-2010

T0ggle, I think the point they're making is that you take a single point in Flux somewhere down the line and then hit the guy with both.

Massively increases your burst damage.


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IceDive

Senior Member

01-07-2010

That was the general point, yes. for example, (3 points overload + 1 point spell flux) > (4 points overload)


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T0ggle

Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDive View Post
That was the general point, yes. for example, (3 points overload + 1 point spell flux) > (4 points overload)
Ya I just don't see it, I see 4 points in overload dealing more damage.
I'm sorry, but even if I did change my guide itd end up like the other one.
This one has its place as another way to play ryze, it doesn't suck, and its not better, its just what it is.


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Kendouy

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Always interesting to read a new guide to my first main, so creds for that!

I would like to point out though, that I would like to throw in spellflux early, perhaps not for the damage but for the cooldown reduction it offers in the passive and the awesome farming abilities it offers in the laningphase of the game.


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T0ggle

Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendouy View Post
Always interesting to read a new guide to my first main, so creds for that!

I would like to point out though, that I would like to throw in spellflux early, perhaps not for the damage but for the cooldown reduction it offers in the passive and the awesome farming abilities it offers in the laningphase of the game.
Ya we talked about that, There are 2 good ways of building ryze so far, mine is not getting spell flux till level 13.
Both have their place, as i've said before.


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RamboBatman

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Ok, so I generally agree with those who are saying that one point in spell flux is a good idea. If nothing else, pick it up at lvl 7 and use it so that your ult comes back online faster. Anyway, thats just how I'd do it, you've talked this issue out with some other posters and have stuck to your guns so I don't expect to change your mind.

The real issue I saw in your build and was surprised that noone mentioned was the inclusion of Void Staff. Given that you're playing with a lot of magic penetration runes, sorcerers boots and will have the reduction from spell flux, Void Staff gives vastly diminished returns (this has to do with the way MR-reduction and penetration effects are calculated).

For example, lets say you're facing an opponent with 100 MR. Sorcerers Boots + your runes penetrate ~40 of their resistance and lets say two spell flux stacks gives you and additional 30 MR reduction so they're sitting at ~30 effective MR. Void Staff's effect is calculated after these flat reduction effects reducing the 30 by 40% to 18. In other words, the staff gives you ~12 effective MR reduction, less than your boots. It does get better the more MR they have but, 100 is around what your average champion with natural MR, Mercury Treads, and Chalice of Harmony has. If you're facing someone with no itemized MR (and you can only hope they're this stupid) Void Staff will give you no benefit.

Anyway, point is Abyssal Scepter is probably a better buy as it gives more AP and a reduction effect that combines well with those you are already using. Its entirely possible to get your opponents MR down to 0 and, if you've got a Soraka/Fiddlesticks/Karthus/Amumu on your team, all the better.


Edit: Just went and checked the FAQ and I was a bit off. First reduction effects are calculated (spell flux, abyssal scepter, starcall, fiddlesticks aura) then its % based MR reduction (void staff, mastery point) then its MR penetration (runes, sorcerer's boots). So, Void Staff isn't quite as bad as I thought but still doesn't synergize well with spell flux. I'd still go with the Scepter if your team has a couple of other magic damage dealers and especially any of the other champs that can apply MR reduction effects.


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