@Morello/Ghostcrawler - Please Nerf responsibly.

First Riot Post
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Yeroban

Senior Member

03-23-2014

2 Questions about Gragas rework:
1. His W's is very similar to Poppy's Q, but does not have the max health damage threshold her ability does. Any reason why/why not, or would this be considered as a limitation if the ability was deemed too strong after testing?
2. I think his reworked passive is great, but is stale in that it lacks any real risk/reward. And maybe Gragas needs that stability but I wanted to ask, what was the reasoning as to why it is triggered on "ability use" and not ability hit?


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Shentok

Senior Member

03-23-2014

Bruiser Diana is what I like to build on her. It just makes more sense to rush in and be in your face. Being an assassin doesn't seem to fit her identity as a champion.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

03-23-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sustain supports are not the classification I look at, but the "traditional" support (more helping with direct spells) do need better itemization. Right now, actives weaken the identity of supports (by the end of the game, top games have as many bought skills as not) as you're best picking someone who can win lane and is a great vehicle for these powerful, necessary effects.
Hmm.

What about items that grant additional buffs on actively supporting an ally?

Like an item that gives you and allied champions an extra 15+small AP ratio% movespeed for 1.5 seconds whenever you actively buff, shield, or heal them (i.e. no passive auras and no selfish-only buffs--Orianna's W would boost her if she hits an ally with the initial movespeed boost but not the field left behind, Lux would get a speed boost whenever her shield hit an allied champion). Maybe single-target buffs/shields give a 25% speed boost and AoE buffs give a 10% speed boost, making it almost of a reverse of Rylai's.

Such an item would breathe some new gameplay into Soraka and Janna ults, give Nami and Sona a nice way to further scale their active movespeed buffs [Sona also gains boosts to her W], and perhaps give Orianna, Shen, Karma, and Lux some new tricks (or in Karma's case, nerf potential). Lee Sin, Gangplank, and Sivir get a funny off build. It would also be a good excuse to nerf Talisman's active. Thresh might be a potential abuse case, but he can be accounted for.


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LucifronSun

Master Recruiter

03-23-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We agree; we never want to go overboard on something unless there's something that demands immediate attention. We've not been consistent about this from an execution standpoint, and a lot of that is due to not centralizing how we make these decisions enough.

This essentially means that since we've been working more "loosely", we've had some problems all getting on the same page (or how to, sometimes!) with each other on how to best address certain problems. This creates inconsistency, which makes it hard to tell where smoke leads to fire for players. This makes it hard to parse feedback on our end, since players don't have a good rubric to look at what changes will pan out and which ones might be too far.

With some better communication and consistency on our part, I think we can nerf more appropriately for a problem. Of course we will make changes for the reasons you mentioned, but I think we can do better on execution. I'd like the results of this to speak for themselves a bit in the next several months.
Does this mean champs like vladimir will be properly dealt with, perhaps reworked, instead of being left in a completely unsavory state for years? Hell, rengar is a fairly new champion and he got a rework way ahead of vlad, and he wasn't as gamebreaking.


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exec3

Senior Member

03-24-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiSkillshot View Post
I don't know how they'd be able to fix her. Especially, if she's going to keep the stealth. She might be destined to get reworks, followed by nerfs, follow by more reworks. Just like my lady, Kayle.
The main good thing that came from Eve's previous rework was solidifying her stealth. Besides that she had really weird abilities. There was AD scaling and she had one of if not the largest AS steroids in the game on an AP nuker.

Kayle just simply needs a redo. Start from scratch like they were originally planning, she's suffered from too many partial reworks imo. Keep Righteous Fury as an ultimate with duration/cooldown like Singed or Renekton but start from scratch with everything else imo. She's melee, make her function like one and leave the ranged stuff for an single epic moment.


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Darius the Great

Member

03-24-2014

@Morello (Should you care to respond of course)


Can you tell us any about where the Darius rework is at right now (Aside from the tenative ideas you posted a while back)?


Thank you,


-DtG


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2hot2trotsky

Senior Member

03-24-2014

id like to ask, what are your stances on my 2 favorite champions since they're both relatively popular right now

kha'zix - the recent balance changes to kha'zix ended up making him harder to deal with then he was in patch 4.3, he does slightly less damage, but is much more survivable in teamfights, instead of readjusting his powerlevel i feel you guys were more then justified to just overall lowering his total power in the game (so long as you maintain whats awesome about him, his predatory feel and high damage) im assuming we'll either see reversions to his buffs last patch, or nerfs somewhere else.

Wukong - this was my 1st champion, i jungled him all through season 2 and 3 and he got really really really strong in season 4, with how the pantheon nerfs are looking on the PBE it's got me worried for my favortie monkey.

what are some concerns you guys have with wukong and kha'zix? do they have problematic aspects in their kits? this is a topic i would very much like to discuss with a red, and ask questions about, help me see what you guys see, as a designer (game design is something im incredibly fascinated and passionate about, especially within the league)


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Bern

Senior Member

03-24-2014

@Morello:

I don't think I'm alone in being confused by the released iteration of the Kassadin changes. It's not so much "qq, Kassadin got nerfed" for me as it is that I'm not really sure what the champion's identity and playstyle is anymore. I've tried building him the same (which turned out poorly and made me unable to deal enough damage to kill anyone, even adjusting my playstyle to account for new w) and building him like Ryze (in hopes that I could AoE DPS the enemy team with 2s CD ult in lategame, which also turned out poorly, because my early game was just as bad as when I built like old Kass). It's kind of gotten to the point where I'm thinking Kass shouldn't build mana at all, and should just build AP and accept that his ult is utility-only and heavily gated. = /

Can you shed any light on what new Kass is balanced to do?


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-24-2014
22 of 35 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckethead View Post
I disagree entirely, and I sincerely believe it would be a travesty to do anything with Nidlaee's Q in her current state.

Nidalee's only reliable damage (AP Nidalee, anyways)in human form is her spear, so it's natural that all of her kits power would be loaded into it. Think of other champions that have two or three damage abilities? Do they not deal damage equivalent to what a single Nidalee spear will do? There's nothing wrong with the skill as it exists, especially due to the considerable skill and awareness the AP Nidalee player must possess in order to land said spears at a long enough range to deal the significant damage you see from big spears. Even if it's just a guy spamming them, it's the fault of the player on the receiving end for not being properly prepared and able to deal with the skillshot coming towards them. Why would you punish a player for landing a skillshot? Isn't that entirely against any and all design principles you have put forth, Morello? (IE Xerath, Regar Rework, that pitiful rework known as current Skarner, etc.)

The rest of her power is shifted into her cougar form abilities, which are DANGEROUS for a squishy caster(thanks for nerfing those free resists by the way, CLEARLY a good design decision.) with little to no ability to get away past a single gap closer that will put you into MELEE range without any hope of escape should things go down **** creek. You land the spear, and rush in to melee range and try to finish someone off, because Nidalee doesn't have a finishing ability in human, other than land another spear, which lets face it, is going to be significantly tougher now that the target is on high alert and doing their best to avoid being in range of said spear.

So why punish them, Morello? Do you just dislike champions that deal their damage in high burst? Is that why you continue to nerf ever single assassin in the game? There's no reason for this, and I would really like to know what reasoning you might have, if any, for wanting to change an incredibly high skill cap champion just because they have all of their reliable damage on one ability.

Even given all that, why nerf, Morello? Is there really no way to bring champions of a similar type to a certain bar? Just because Yasuo/Grag/etc are strong mid laners that deal quite a bit of damage, is it really so bad that they do that? Must you really continue to nerf them just to try to get others to see play? Just set a level you want them to be at, and attempt to bring others to that level.

If you make a product, but then make a SUPERIOR product, do you really make the superior product more inferior so that the other inferior products look like they shine? That sounds like poor business practice, and poor balance. Just set a bar and bring them to that bar. It's ok to shift power around in kits, but I don't think that it's ok to just make them worse for the sake of trying to make others LOOK like they're better. If you bring them to a similar level it should seriously increase diversity. Do we want to run a fast siege comp with tower pushers like Xin and Malz? Or maybe we want to run a late game comp with Amumu and MF? If you look at your history, you will see that your greatest successes have come from bringing champions to a specific level and leaving them (Elise, Lee Sin, Caitlyn, Renekton,etc.) They don't just have versatility, they have lasting power because you don't destroy them with a patch (Graves, Rework Sejuani, Corki, Rework Kasseriouslywhatwereyouthinkin-adin, etc.)

If you can find a legitimate reason for not bringing them to an even bar I would love to seriously hear it, because as it sits you're just on your way to make all abilities just be particle effects and auto attacks deal no damage. No I don't think "power creep" is a good excuse, because power won't "creep" if you don't run everything up to insane numbers.
Nidalee spears are fun, satisfying and take skill. That's good. They also basically will eventually hit with good players involved because you can throw SO many of them. If Nid's had an OK game, then that spear will throw a teamfight into a big swing after just one good hit. This is good if there's a window, some downtime, something. Right now, it's so constant and so impactful, it removes the real tradeoff to the skill. It's a simple cooldown problem to me (and to finish, shouldn't you have to commit a little? Should you be a "ranged assassin"?

Because if we brought a character up to Gragas, we'd have to overload them and remove their downsides - this is the part that's so damning about these designs. You're seeing at as a buffs/nerfs axis, which is not the axis to look at here. What matters is "what do champions give up for their strengths". Most really dominant characters answer with "very little."

You can dislike adding tradeoffs as we do it, but I think it's critical; afterall, how does a character with tradeoffs get balanced against one without if they're roughly the same overall power? That's really tough to do when reliability and consistency is so important in good play - or on the other side, you risk those characters having to be completely flat to support their multitude of power sets. Elise is one of the most terrible examples, as she's the poster child for this stuff. Only via bad scaling is she not a complete mess.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-24-2014

Boooooooo

I boo you Morello.

Boooooo.

Bringing characters "up to Gragas level" would not in fact remove all their weaknesses. Feral druids had no slow, had no mortal strike, and weren't particularly reknown for their burst damage. Yet I got gladiator season 2 with feral. HOW DID I DO IT? Because I had so much of everything else. Healing, CC, sustained damage, team fights, anti-debuff, anti-poison, anti-curse, you name it!

I did not just get molded in to perma slow + healing debuff melee like rogues/warriors, I was something different. Something... more.