AP Kogmaw? DPS? Or Hybrid?

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Apothem

Senior Member

01-08-2011

First, how would you build AP Kogmaw? DPS? Hybrid? Which technically does more damage mid game? Late game? I mean I've seen both types of Kogmaws in my games and in some ways I think that AP Kogmaw is better, but are not completely sure if that's really true.


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AreYouReady2Die

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Senior Member

01-08-2011

It varies against different opponents usually prefer attack speed hybrid madrids bloodrazor/maladysorc boots if there's no high threats and cc(ninja tabi/merc otherwise)/hextech gunblade/abyss scepter/frozEn mallet. Get the madrid razor first then malady, finish bloodrazor. Beyond first 3 is situational if their heavy physical get the armor ap zhonya remake item etc. I put very little into the slow cast till late game. Mpen/mp 5/ cdr for runes, with 16/0/14 mastery, once malady and bloodrazor is built it gets fun the long range attack will eat people, if your gonna ult spam u may need archangel/manamune which works with strengrth of spirit mastery well (16/7/7 mastery)


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Fifthdawn

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Senior Member

01-08-2011

AD. AP isn't that strong.

You would need about 900-1000 AP to get his ult to do just 800 damage. So realistically, with 500 AP, you're ult would only hit for 500 damage per hit. 600 at most. Oh and alot of people thinks the 150% additional damage applies to the AP ratio as well. Anyone who thought that, you can probably ignore their post because they don't really know Kogmaw. The 160 gains 150% additional, then the AP is just applied as additional damage on to the ult WHICH MEANS, his ult has an extremely low ratio.

If you went AD with 2.0 attack speed, you can do 800 damage per crit. Thats 1600 damage per second before mitigation. A good DPS will have a good balance of attackspeed, AD and crit chance to get the highest DPS possible per 5 second.

The only AP build I would do is, and even then, the AD route is still stronger. Anyways

Sorc Boot
Madred Bloodrazor
Malady
Nashor's Tooth
Wit's End/Sword of Divine
VoidStaff

And this isn't AP for ULT, this is AP for %health per attack. This makes you hit for about 11% per hit, with 2.5 attack speed after matery and runes. Thats about 28% of your health per second. In the full 6 second duration of W, you woulda done 165% of their max health. Even with resistance you would need at least 120 Magic resist to live the 6 seconds after Sorc boots, and voidstaff + mastery's 49% reduction in MR. But you would still do damage with ult, Q and E, which means realistically, you would need at least 150 MR to live the full 6 seconds. Magic resist is hard to come by. On average, a champ would only have 30 natural magic resist at lvl 18. A few will have up to 50. You would still need at least a Banshee Veil and Guardian Angel or Force of Nature to get enough magic resist to live.

Now if you don't have any MR, you will kill any champion in 4 seconds with just autoattack while W is activated.

Even then, AD will still kill faster. The best thing is Kogmaw is versitile. Normally by the time you finish your Bloodrazor, you'll know if the tank is tanking mainly armor or mainly magic resist. This gives you more than enough time to decide whether you want to stick with AP or you want to stick with AD.

The power of AD isn't physical damage itself. It's defending against AD Kogmaw. If you went AD (you know, IE, BC, PD, etc.) If your opponent gear s armor, you would still take 10% of their health per second as magic damage. If you gear MR, you would take physical damage. It is extremely hard to gear against a Kogmaw which is AD Kogmaw's strongest point.

You will notice that both AD and AP build takes about 10% of their health per hit with the same attack speed. The only difference is that in AP you have more magic penetration and you do damage through Wit's End and Sword of the Divine. But I truly believe the large amount of damage you gain gearing AD is actually higher than what you woulda done through WE, SotD, and magic pen combined.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

01-08-2011

AD does do obscene DPS, but AP is moar fun I think. Yes, his ult has a terrible AP ratio. But it has an incredible cooldown with incredible range. Plus, building him heavy AP actually makes his Q and W do decent damage, so he can make an enemy assassin pay with his life.

Building Kog'Maw around his R works only if you have good team composition (i.e. you have stuns, tanks, and actual DPS), but it pays dividends with the advantage of being probably one of the most punishing poking heroes in the game. You can constantly scout with it, you provide good defense for towers, you mock the effort of their tanks to protect their DPS, you make defending towers for them a more difficult proposition, and your poking is just fantastic. Plus, there is an element of safety afforded by not being in range of things like Malphite that an AD Kog would not be a fan of.

The main problem with R focused AP Kog, though, is that he literally dies to almost anything 1 on 1. Your Q and E actually carve out a decent chunk of enemy HP if they dive for you, but lack of stun and appreciable attack damage means that you better have a team mate covering you. A dedicated, well built assassin will effortlessly kill you if they manage to avoid your team's CC and jump at you anywhere near their full HP, but that is the price of playing AP Kog.



I suggest at least trying him a couple of times to see if playing artillery fits your style (Fifth is right that AD is stronger for damage, but AP is still viable and has its own advantages). Core items are Archangels and a mana/defense item such as Frozen Heart or Rod of Ages - you want 2.5k - 3k mana to make sure that blue buff scales up adequately enough to sustain your over 200 mana per second R spam; and you want to be able to farm/poke while still having a decent mana pool remaining for team fights when you don't have a blue buff. The 2 defensive boots won't do jack **** to save you, so get either +20 magic pen boots or the better movement boots ("walking" your enemy with your ult is actually a fairly often occurrence, so moving fast for repositioning between shots helps). Cooldown boots also appreciably improve your DPS, but only in situations when you reliably hit every shot, so they are not reliable. Plus, between runes, Frozen Heart, blue pot, and/or blue buff, you have maxed out CDR anyway.

After boots/archangels/mana item; get Deathcap (and probably Void Staff). Generally, you will want to build Catalyst, Tear, and boots first. Until you are level 11, you want to farm and survive (assist with ganks whenever you can, your Q and E actually help out a ton there, plus you can finish off stragglers and prevent enemies from juking using bushes). Buy wards - Kog'Maw farms like a madman and dies like a fly. After you hit 11, your ultimate goes from "finisher-annoyance" to "threat" and will greatly help to win your team fight. Once you have some AP, you will be able to clear our ranged creeps in 1 E + R between fights with the enemy team, so your farming doesn't suffer.

With AP Kog, level E first. Q vs. W I haven't figured out yet, but I think Q earlier is better because it doesn't interrupt your ultimate use and it increase the damage of your entire team against that target (and Q helps you land more last hits once the minion waves grow).

Summoner ability wise, definitely Ghost. It is especially useful to AP Kog focusing on R as it allows you to more easily keep the enemy in its range - so it serves both a defensive and offensive function. I also really like Teleport because it allows you a bit with farming while ensuring that you can participate in team fights. It also offers the advantage of helping you reach level 16 quickly by nabbing large minion waves solo (AP Kog gains a lot more from reaching lvl 11 and 16 breakpoints than most heroes - they literally redefine your capabilities).

Stuff like Exhaust, Heal, Cleanse, Flash help you live if someone breaks through after you, so they are valid choices (personally I think Ghost offers more versatility for this build and has better synergy with his ult). Claivorance, Clarity, Ignite are not something I would favor. Your ult already is decent at scouting, clarity doesn't really keep up with your mana spending, Ignite is not something you are going to be able to take advantage of. They can help, but they are suboptimal choices.


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Apothem

Senior Member

01-08-2011

Well, how would a fully geared DPS Kog'maw look like? Since normally I would assume Bloodrazers, Frozen Mallet... and then I'm not sure. IE + LW?

And what if a tank gets Thornmail? Won't I still get hurt a lot if they have that?


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RoflTroll

Senior Member

01-08-2011

I prefer this for more general role instead of being an auto-attacker.

Tear(Archangel later) or Catalyst(Banshee)
Sorc Shoe
Nashor's Tooth
Deathcap
Hourglass

The reason I'm going full AP is because all his abilities scales with AP (including W), and if the enemy are packing heavy CC, trying to get close would open yourself up to getting focus fired. But with a heavy AP build you can still snipe people with your ult for a good chunk of damage instead of barely tickling anyone.

For skills order, 1 point into all skills then max out E or W first depending on how the game is. Q should be left at 1 as a last-resort mini-nuke, since the range on it is horrible(it's about the same as your non-W auto-attack, which means trying to use it with W would require you to move closer to the enemy)
R whenever available, with proper sniping you can even take down someone from full in team fight just by spamming your ult.


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Fifthdawn

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Senior Member

01-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apothem View Post
Well, how would a fully geared DPS Kog'maw look like? Since normally I would assume Bloodrazers, Frozen Mallet... and then I'm not sure. IE + LW?

And what if a tank gets Thornmail? Won't I still get hurt a lot if they have that?
Bloodrazor
2x Phantom Dancer
BlackCleaver (Obviously switch out for Last Whisper if they have over 140 Armor)
2x Infinity Edge

The order I tend to do is

Bloodrazor
350 boot
Phantom
BlackCleaver
Infinity
Sell boot, get Phantom
Infinity

The game is usually over when you get bloodrazor, boot, phantom. Maybe BC in a 40minute match. But this is the ideal 6 item build if you're dominating and is rich.

Yes, I am aware that there is no boots in this build. 2 Phantom dancer provides enough movement speed where you are fast or as fast as champions with level 2 boots. Normally I get 1 phantom dancer and 1 boot, the 350 one and that is enough movement speed, this is not including the 10% health per hit, or 25% health per second on a 2.5 attackspeed.

With an AD build, I'm going to assume you have 25 armor pen from runes, 6 more in mastery. BC gives you 45 at max stack which isn't hard with high attack speed. That gives you around 70-75 armor pen. All champions have 70 natural armor minimum at 18, with a FEW having more. You have enough armor pen with this build to do true damage, and even 25 more armor buffer with Q. That means you are fine attacking champions up to 90-100 armor. Even if they have more, the difference is very minimal. They should have at least 150 armor before you justify switching out the BC for Last Whisper.

The highest possible DPS build is 2x Phantom Dancer, 2x Infinity Edge, 2x BloodThirster.
One of the Bloodthirsters is usually switched out on DPS who don't have ways to increase their attack speed for a Blackcleaver. Because of the new stats both AD and AS on BC now, it's a significant increase in DPS compared to the old BC. BLoodrazor is an exception on Kogmaw, otherwise most other ranged DPS, I stick with this build.

The priority in DPS is usually getting 100% crit, getting 2.0 Attack speed, and rest goes to AD.

With this build, You would have 2.5 attack speed, 335AD, 100% crit which ends up giving you 2.1-2.2k damage per second with 403 movement speed.

Yes all his skills benefit from AP. But so does Tristana and Miss Fortune doesn't mean you should build her AP.
Look at his skills differently. Look at it as a way to support AD build.

Q gives you 25 armor pen.

W gives you range. At max level, you have 800 range, which is the longest range of all range DPS in the game followed by Tristana at 713, Caitlyn at 650, and Annie at 625

E Gives you snare

R gives you vision and extra damage. Your vision is less than 800 range. Which means if you don't ult them and they step out of your field of vision, you are not making most use of W. Also R does more than enough damage. You would need about 1200 AP just to double the ults damage. This low ratio does not justify going AP.

When you look at the skills this way, it is clear that Kogmaw is an AD carry.

EDIT: As to thornmail comment. To say thornmail is a problem is like saying every AD champion is useless because people can go thornmail. 30% of the damage goes back to you, but with enough armor pen, which Kogmaw has a lot of, they are still taking 100% of the damage. You would always kill them faster then they would kill you if you have enough armor pen.

Worst case scenario, if you don't think you can take the damage for some odd reason, then buy a negatron cloak to counter the thornmail. They spend 2k and you spend 700 to counter it. All champions have atleast 30 natural base magic resist. With negatron cloak, +48, you would have 78 magic resist. Thats a 44% reduction in magic damage. Theres 2 things you have to realize. 1.) Tanks don't get magic pen, 2.) Thornmail's damage is magic damage.

Either way, only tanks should really be getting it. You shouldn't be focusing the tank anyways. Plus even if you do, 10% hp per hit is damage they can't reduce through thornmail. Like I've mentioned earlier in post, Kogmaw is the hardest carry to defend against. If you gear armor, you take magic damage. 10% of your health per hit at a 2.5 attack speed is serious damage. This means if you have very lil magic resist, you take 100% of your max health in 4 seconds. If you gear magic resist, you're taking 2.1-2.2k damage per second.

I'm telling you now, AD kogmaw is the way to go and I believe my arguments in this case supports it fully. AP is fun, and i won't stop anyone from going AP but you are almost useless in team fights and does mediocre damage. If you want to main Kogmaw and play seriously, I'd go AD.


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AreYouReady2Die

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Senior Member

01-08-2011

The reason I say hybrid is better is, your not wtpwned by a thornmail tank wjen you target him ad kogmaw is good but, is doing physical damage.
Hybrid speed kog's W is what eats people madrids and w willl do close to 12% hp magic damage a shot with my build with a bit of ad damage for thoenmail to reflect, it'll hurt some but you won't kill yourself eating a tank.

Ad kog without mpen runes, malady, sorc boots, and abyss scepter madrids will do about 1.5% hp damage vs 3.5 or 4% like mpen will, and W will do about 2-3%hp per hit. I build to max out madrid and W's killing power, nothings more satisfying than eating a geared mundo mid ult without ignite.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

01-08-2011

I'm a huge advocate for Madred's/MPen/AS builds, and in my experience work far better. If the game dictates it, you can build some AD/Crit items after your Madreds/MPen core to mix up the damage, but there's not point in building for that 10% damage if it's just going to get nerfed by enemy MR. MPen is hugely underrated on Kog'Maw.

However, I do NOT advocate Malady, as the MR shredding takes 6 hits, and you want to be doing max damage from the first hit.

Madred's Bloodrazor, Sorc Shoes, Nashor's Tooth are core for me, then it depends on the game. If I need more MPen, I grab Haunting Guise, otherwise 30 is enough, and I can either build AD/Crit to counter enemy MR stacking, or buiild Survivability and AP to boost that %, ultimate, and Void Ooze.


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Doriantv

Member

01-08-2011

My Kog'Maw build is

Doran's Blade
Boots of Choice
Madred's Bloodrazor
Banshee's Veil
Sword of the Divine / Stark's Fervor

but I hate playing Kog'Maw, so don't play him much. Listen to more experienced players.


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