Alistar Thoughts

First Riot Post
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Dracozero

Senior Member

01-08-2011

Thou shall milk this thread


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Séjuani

Senior Member

01-08-2011

Honestly id like the speed boost buff to be kept on his passive, just capped (albeit smaller). I dont want to be forced to pop my ulti in situations where its damage reduction and cleanse would be irrelevant. I mean, the ulti cleanses alistar, which would merit that itd be used mid-initiation, after youre in close enough range of the enemy to where youd be threatening. The thing is that you need your speed to even get to that point in the first place, and if you have to get your speed from your ulti, you then become vulnerable to all cc. So then alistar would have to get his start up speed from ghost or reverie, which is where he is now.

tl;dr: if you keep the speed buff on alistars ult, he'll still be extremely reliant on summoner spells and item actives.


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Jimsvaliant

Senior Member

01-08-2011

Increased damage on headbutt and it's on a shorter cooldown...

I'm not sure how I feel about this... his headbutt was already an amazingly powerful harrass in laning phase to begin with.

I'm loving everything else though. Seems to scale out okay.


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Megore

Senior Member

01-08-2011

These changes look really good

I always hated not being able to use headbutt on minions

I don't care much for his current passive because it makes me want to not build him as a tank.

Edit: can you remove the animation he does with his heal, I hate how it makes you come to a a complete stop and delays the spell by .25 of a second.


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The Cursed One

Senior Member

01-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
Hey all,

I thought I should give an update on where we're at with Alistar. A couple months ago (has it really been that long?) I talked a bit about an Alistar remake we were working on internally. This excited a lot of people. In the process of doing a champion remake, I spent a lot of time learning the champion, as I always do. I got lessons from Reep, played games with him Dapacman, Nicosharp, etc, and played a whole bunch of Alistar myself.

In doing so, I learned that Alistar is really not in a terrible spot, just very hard to play. I have also seen Alistar played successfully periodically in the ELO ranges I play at on my two accounts (1400-1800 solo). From these experiences, my goals for Alistar changed. I no longer believe he needs a large buff, or even a medium one. I think he could use a small buff, but mostly he needs usability tweaks (which were also scheduled along with the buff).

Our initial Alistar changelog for the first remake playtest looked something like this:

Pulverize - AoE increased and normalized to interact more regularly with units of varying sizes; cooldown modified to longer at rank 1 and shorter at rank 5.

Headbutt - Now can target minions, cooldown modified to longer at rank 1 and shorter at rank 5; damage increased slightly toward upper ranks.

Triumphant Roar - Cooldown, cost, and effect reduced about 15%.

Unbreakable Will - no longer provides attack damage; now removes debuffs in an area around Alistar as well as himself.

Trample - new passive. Whenever Alistar casts a spell, he gains a bit of move speed, can walk through units, and deals area damage for a few seconds (stacks and overlaps).

Now, before you say it, yes this was way overpowered. Our initial thought for Alistar was to give him a new, distinct role in the tank lineup - anti AoE-CC. In doing so we were able to remove Attack Damage from his ultimate (which did synergize with his passive but muddied the spell's clarity of purpose and also doesn't really feel like it belongs on a tank), which was a goal. We also wanted to improve his farming so we tried out our first attempt at the passive Trample. It made him better at nearly everything - escaping, farming, killing, you name it. Clearly OP

So we went on, nerfing the remade Alistar as we playtested and he continued to mash faces. In the next version, we made Trample simply refresh and not stack, which helped a bit with his killing-anyone-at-level-2 problem, and in the test after we nerfed down the move speed some more on Trample so he wouldn't be so unkillable.

We tested this new version a few more times, and it was still overpowered, but we also had a new observation. Nobody really seemed to like the AoE cleanse on Unbreakable Will. It created odd scenarios like do I use my Unbreakable Will despite being at full health and not targeted? Plus Alistar often have to take a second to move next to the CC'ed carry and by that time it was somewhat not useful to cleanse him anyway. So we shelved that mechanic for now, although we might use it on a future champion in a better form (pair it with a more suitable off effect, and it probably needs to be target-AoE rather than PBAoE). In doing so, we moved movement speed from the still-too-strong Trample to the ultimate. This new version seems to be a pretty good direction for Alistar, but still pretty strong.

One last particularly controversial nerf came in near the end - reduced stun duration on Alistar's Pulverize. If we want a shorter cooldown and better hitbox on it, the disable time has to go down, too. In reality his Pulverize is almost as good as an ultimate. His priority has also been reduced since he's really not underpowered, just really tough to use and possibly a bit overshadowed. I'm still working on him occasionally when I have time, but patches take a lot of time and effort. We still have not decided for certain if we want to move forward with the Trample passive or not. It might just be too strong overall, and it is a pretty big kit shift away from turret pushing (even though it seems to be a net buff). Then there's always the concern of how the community would accept an Alistar buff that included a nerf to Pulverize duration.

So what do the Alistar players think? Are these acceptable tradeoffs for some of the buffs you guys are looking for? Or would you rather see a more scaled back approach? His kit is clearly strong - AoE stun of almost ultimate quality, a knockback, an admittedly weak AoE heal, a massive damage reduction, and debuff removal. So we could probably solve any problems he has with numbers (though this is possibly even more risky). The new version looks a little like this:

Pulverize - reduced cooldown at upper ranks, reduced stun duration, increased AoE size

Headbutt - deals more damage, reduced cooldown at upper ranks, can target minions

Triumphant Roar - reduced cost, effect, and cooldown by about 15%

Unbreakable Will - provides movement speed instead of attack damage

Trample passive - on casting a spell, Alistar gains AoE damage (like Tremors) and can walk through units for 3 seconds.

EDIT: One thing I forgot to add is that yes we plan to increase his difficulty and remove the recommended tag. Good point.

Sorry that this turned into more of a blog than a forum post. I didn't intend for it to happen this way. I feel like I'm forgetting a few inb4's, but I'm being summoned to the Tol Barad raid boss guy. I hope this turns into a good discussion!

Thanks,
Guinsoo
Thank you for the update, it is much appreciated. I think the changes are good. Mainly the aoe increase on pulverize, the headbutt being added to minions(this will help his farming as long as you have mana regen, and his passive is very good for both offense and defense. Headbutt a minion then walk through others to pulverize to get a champ? or headbutt a minion and then run through them to escape. Im sure there are many more. Good changes.


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Walt Whitman

Junior Member

01-08-2011

his stun needs to be long enough that with his base movespeed he can run to other side of champ who was hit with pulverize and knock them back EVEN if the target has merc treads. Otherwise he goes back to useless mode. Also I suggest reducing healing and cooldown of heal so he can get a sheen proc pretty much every 4 to 5 seconds.

My only complaint is that the Q damage nerf may hurt his farming even more (although W buff may help? I wish it was a skill shot so he could kool aid man through walls)


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TwoShanez

Senior Member

01-08-2011

Um, I'm hoping it's not a crappy remake that takes away a bunch of his power like the exhaust remake did...


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Shanghaiii

Senior Member

01-08-2011

I don't know about his new R skill. I do like his ult to attack turrets or hitting the DPS players when they do focus on me. I think perhaps adding attack speed burst for a short duration within his ult. Like 2-3 seconds of attack speed burst then it slows down for another 3 seconds, ending his ult in 6 seconds {his ult does last 6 seconds anyways}.

I know he is mean to be a tank support, but his triumphant roar's effect is reduced? Do you mean it will has less heal or it will certain amount of minions?

I always like the headbutt targeting champs, if adding minions it can make it harder to use since champs can block the skill by hiding behind or by minions.

I like the increased AOE size for the pulverize skill, how short is the stun duration? .5 seconds?

Anyways, thank you for the focus on Alistar and your re-working on him, I appreacaite it.


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GhostDieM

Senior Member

01-08-2011

First off thank you for giving us some info on his development, much appreciated. Was waiting a long time for a change to him (though I agree he's in a better spot now due to all the game changes).
New changes look great, though I'm not sure if his ult's duration is long enough if/when you use it as an initiation tool (you'll use the speed but not the damage reduction to full effect). Using a combination of his passive and his ult is probably going to make his initiation hard to counter so that might balance it out. Curious to find out how this will turn out, keep up the good work Riot!


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MisterPink

Senior Member

01-08-2011

Make that if you headbutt a minion or champion against a champion, the non-headbutted champion is getting stunned so you can use headbutt for chasing.