Need help? A guide to ELO and ways to improve your rating.

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Argothes

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Senior Member

01-15-2011

That has to be the best read I've ever read on the forums. Your wording was very elegant, and it flowed in a way that made it very easy for even the newest player to understand. Kudos on this post, and a definite thumbs up!


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Liebesträume3

Member

01-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthstrike View Post
Since people seem to be wanting to have a serious discussion here and the math of the current modified ELO system comes up a lot I just wanted to point out a few things. There's many things said that I want to respond to but I don't want to to make a "cookie cutter" post filled with partial quotes and responses. I'll start off with just one quote

"what newbies dont' know: you need to get good with a variety of high level champs. there are several roles you can play in a match.during champ select: i make a guess at who's going to win assuming equal skill level based on champs picked. i'm correct about 50% of the time. which isn't bad considering skill > items > champ."

Being correct 50% of the time when one of two teams will win a game means you are about as accurate at making predictions as a random number generator. In other words, its not very accurate at all. Theoretically, its impossible to have a prediction system less accurate than 50%. (That's because if its less than 50% then it's a good system at predicting the loser which means the inversion of the system is accurate more than 50% of the time).


Anyways this discussion seems to be centered around the notion about whether or not Darkpsx's advice is appropriate for this forum. I will agree that this stuff "should" be obvious to most people, however, it certainly is not. When I was struggling at 1100 elo plenty of the things darkpsx talks about aren't done. Warding. Fulfilling your own role correctly. (e.g. tanks taking kills from carries when the carry will certainly get it without the tanks help). Understanding the importance of baron vs towers. (e.g. many teams will go for one tower when they could kill baron. Baron is worth more than one tower in the long run of the game). Lane wandering. I see it quite often where a person is too far out to farm creeps.

This advice is definitely applicable to people between 1000-1200 in my experience.
As for some of the mathematical issues of ELO that were discussed:
The average elo is numerically under, but probably close to, 1200.
This follows from what we know about elo. Everyone starts at 1200. The sum of the elo gains for a team will be (approx.) the same as the sum of the elo losses. Since an average is merely the sum of all ELO divided by the number of players, it would remain unchanged over time if all increases in elo are offset by equal decreases. The only deflation that occurs in the average elo comes about as a consequence of people losing elo for queue dodging or leaving, since there is no corresponding elo gain.

The ELO curve is probably approximately normal and its only skewing effects are to the right as a consequence of leavers and queue dodges. The reason we wouldn't see signifigant skew is because people only play with people near their elo in the MM system. This means that the good players do not get to beat up on the entire pool of bad players.

Terms such as good and bad player are relative terms. The top players 10 months ago are likely bad compared to the top players today. If you want to speak about whose good and whose bad then the best way is talk about those above and below average.

Also, based on my personal experience, you don't need to be a good solo carry to proceed to the next level in ranked. I got up to 1350 from 1100 mostly playing sona and udyr. This is support and jungler, not a carry. I know everyone generally says you have to learn a carry to go further onwards in solo queue, but I think the idea is you need to learn to play at least one carry well so you can cover roles.
Everyone should just read this post. And then read it again.

I laughed so hard when I initially read the 50% prediction rate thing. I was tempted up to type up a scathing post, but I'm happy I didn't because this one accomplishes it more eloquently and humorously.

People that whine about the Elo system generally just don't understand math.


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Alitoh

Junior Member

01-17-2011

I believe I'm the lucky kind of guy. Even when I do badly, I can get a good champ to carry me to victory, so when **** hits the fan and I realize I'm behind and doing poorly, I focus on getting a good grasp of dragon, baron and pretty much the whole jungle so that our carry can make the most out of it.

Some games (the minority of them) I just get lucky and (due to me always playing ranked with Shaco) get a few early kills, getting on a roll and pseudo-carrying my team. On those particular cases, I still try to think it's more of luck and less of skill, so that I don't get carried away.

I wish I could balance my game a little, tho. I either do really really well or really really bad, and that's a boomer.

Any tips on that?


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Onisake

Senior Member

01-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuKnorris View Post
Perhaps there are riot staff who could observe random players who consistently get good scores but lose because the enemy was more fed than them? I recently got a new account because solo ranked is not nice to tanks like rammus, amumu, shen, and nasus, who were all my best champs. This way players could be considered for an ELO adjustment.
that just enhances the fact that the system favors carry's.

the entire system needs a re-vamp. adding in KDA, or anythign else really doesn't help, because carry's typically always have a better KDA.

having 'observers' takes too many resources. with the exception of a complete revamp of the system, there's not a lot riot can do.


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JazzDeath

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Senior Member

01-17-2011

I have a question, yeah.

A couple actually.

I play solo ranked and I generally end up doing hit and miss because I often try to tank (rammus, Amumu) since no one else picks a ****ing tank and my mentality is that this is a strategy game, not a ****ing game where you take a carry and try to get the highest KDA in your team.

I don't claim to be a pro in any way and my level is not there yet (I have things to work on, to practice, and champions to learn better) but my mentality already reflects what you say about very high elo play (around 1800)

I consider ****ing up a last hit on a minion a big deal, I consider going mid against MF and being pushed back constantly to my tower, being denied and letting her farm the **** up as a huge problem and disadvantage for my team, even if she gets no kills, even if I can still farm moderately well at my tower, she's still bringing down my tower slowly and surely and swimming in gold, while I'm playing defensive and worried about dying because I'm low on health and dominated in range (as kassadin, as an example; we had no good mid champions) I consider buying wards quintessential now and I see them as a game changing item in your favor, I consider proper item building and proper team composition;counterpicking as the single most important thing to be successful in this game, i normally pick a jungler if we have none and often jungle as a tank (by far the least favorite position in the LoL world, from what I have seen)

My issue is, to rise to higher elos do I have to ditch this mentality and just say "**** this, I'm picking the ranged carry, I'm going for the kills and the uber farming, ksing everyone and hard carrying my team and generally not giving a **** about supporting my team, as long as they support my personal success"?

I dislike ranged carries or DPS champs, I find them on the most part extremely boring to play, and it seems that often as a tank at my ELO level (in solo queue, not in premades) my teammates have a radically different viewpoint of what being successful in a lane is.

They don't care about tower diving to get a kill and dying themselves, they tend not to see the bigger picture and see only their KDA and base that entirely on your skill level, and they tend to think also that as a tank, they know what I should be doing, how I should be doing it, and if they die it's my fault for not doing my job properly, even if they try to force me to initiate in lousy conditions where I know we have a huge disadvantage.

I don't have this issue when I play premades with my regular group of online buddies - we generally have a pretty sound tactic and a pretty well balanced team, we communicate well and I truly enjoy my position as a tank in this atmosphere, it is rewarding for my team and even if I only get assists and die in team fights, I feel like I did something worthwhile that helped my team, helped the win, helped the Bigger Picture as you say.

Yet this doesn't work at low Elo, I'm sorry to say but since none of my teammates or the enemies react the same way I do or consider the same things (Some do, I don't deny it, but it's very rare that all 5 of my teammates have this mentality at my solo elo, which is currently 1108 I think; around that.) my tactics as a tank are much less effective.

This guide is interesting, it helps improve your potential as a player, but honestly, I think there are factors in play that complicate things when it comes to the huge variation of skill level, player mentality, team composition and counterpicking (generally lousy) and knowledge of different roles per player/flexibility that make things relatively less black and white than you make them seem.

Unless I'm doing it wrong and picking a hard carry is the only way to go, even if you have no tank and the team strategy and composition is complete ****


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050 MrWhite

Junior Member

01-20-2011

A carry is someone supporting the team/big picture like he should. In fact being supportive Janna on a duo lane could mean you carry your team to victory. A carry is not a typical caster or ranged dps on that term. Just go and play your tank on a solo lane. Just keep in mind that solo lanes somehow need to be able to have a good dmg output.

A question i have is about points you are receiving when winning or losing a match. Seems to me that it depends on your win loss ratio. On 5 v 5 pre made i gained 139 points on my last three matches. On 5 v 5 solo i gain like 13 points a match. Reason is many ranked game losses. Simply took me some time to learn all things that were posted in this thread. Now i went from 1350 straight up to 1500 losing almost no matches and always got my solo lane or jungle. 70% Win ratios on several heros averaged on about 50 games. Still i receive a measly 13 points. Im trying to get a clean secondary account because it could get me to higher rating in less time. Am i missing something here or am i being punished for my early lack of cometitive play.


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Stillborn Joy

Member

01-25-2011

Good read, though I do believe certain players are stuck in ELOs they don't deserve. I have friends in elo's below mine they can't escape who I find just as good as me, a few hundred points above them.


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Vision321

Member

01-25-2011

Very awesome post. I play competitive fighting games and I understand how the metagame works in the games I play, but LOL is a different game all together. Reading you talk about a normal game (Your team having 16 kills to their 8) and the metagame (2 early kills on one team) really put it in perspective, and just how technical the metagame is in LOL. I have never played a ranekd game, but would definitely love to improve my play to the point where I can play at that kind of skill level.

Is it possible for a Tryndamere main? All I read is how he sucks in high ELO, but is it possible? Or is it like trying to play kirby vs fox in melee, or Ryu/Ken/guile vs Magneto/storm/sentinel in MVC2? (In otherwords, hard as hell and don't waste your time and play a higher tier character)


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BloopaTroopa

Junior Member

01-27-2011

I love this advice, good job, but i have a hard time keeping my kool sometimes weather it be for a good reason or not i need to learn to calm down, how to you guys keep your kool when your teamates are raging at you or are just being ******ed.


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Moosebite

Member

01-27-2011

I dunno, I reckon this system is screwed...

I can consistently win games as long as I have one other good player on my team. I get consistently good scores. I play a range of champs. I am a VERY team oriented player. I ward, clairvoyance, stay on top of junglers and jungle buffs/baron/dragon. I'm very map aware, often using cv to stop the noobs on my team overextending into an obvious gank. I even sometimes avoid ksing when i play support to help feed the carries.

And somehow I went from 1300 to 900... W. T. F.

I don't know if it's worth it, the stress can't be good for me.

I think for the first 10 or so games, you have to get EXTREMELY lucky to get no one on your teams that lose the game for you.

But if you start ranked, and you lose enough games you're done. That's how it feels anyway :'(