Skarner Rework Follow Through

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

shadowzolo

Junior Member

04-06-2014

Am I the only one who thinks that Skarner's kit, both old and new, seems a little...odd? What I mean is would you really expect to see a scorpion made of crystals shoot a slowing or healing laser? What about how his lore mentions he burrowed deep under the ground to survive for hundreds of years and yet his only form of mobility is gaining an exoskeleton and having his speed slowly ramp up over time? The little snip snip on his Q makes sense and so does his ultimate if you use your imagination. After all we don't know what kind of venom Skarner carries in his stinger so it could possibly be some sort of toxin that encompass the enemy champion in crystals for a brief moment before the champion finally breaks free. But half of his kit is nothing that I would expect a gigantic crystal scorpion to have at his disposal.

If anything I would expect his lore to tie into one of his abilities, being able to burrow underground and emerge a short distance away knocking up targets in a small radius. Also I'm sure Elise and Kha'zix have some sort of exoskeleton but they do not use theirs for mobility. Plus Skarner is a scorpion after all so I know a lot of us would like to see his stinger used for more then just his ultimate and...not somehow being able to shoot a slowing laser...

Come to think of it, his passive seems a little out of place as well. I mean you don't need to use basic attacks to refresh your cool downs if they have a balanced cool down timer, you know? Overall I guess I am asking if I am the only one who thinks Skarner could use a completely different kit then the one he is using right now?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Byakuren Hijiri

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBeardedFool View Post
I've been playing Skarner some through Season 3 and 4 and picked him up as a main recently. I do miss the permaslow of old Skarner but understand the imbalance it causes. As for his current form, I've been enjoying much more success using Feral Flare. This could be due the item being overpowered (which it seems to be) or just a good item for Skarner. I always build Iceborn Gauntlet so I get the old permaslow back.
Overall he does still feel weak and it is hard to make his ult worthwhile.
The thing that I like about Feral is how it counts the kills you get with Hunter Machete and such too, so you can just easily get feral at about 15 min.

I want you to look at what you just said. You understand the imbalance of permaslow but you get an item to permaslow anyway. This is exactly what we've been going on about (at least one of the things) since this started. Why does skarner get special mention for having permaslow when its pretty rampant in the game and virtually every character can have it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Venus Project

Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
We still have plans for Skarner, mostly in the realm of bringing excitement and a bit of the old identity that people liked about the old Skarner back.

We can keep a lot of the gameplay gains (versatility, windows of power/weakness) and add a bit more stickiness/cc control that people liked about the old kit. I've been in ongoing discussions about these changes with a lot of the team, and I should get down to implementing them sometime next week. When we have a more final changelist, I'll let you know what we intend to do.
I'm glad he didn't got swept under the rug.
so Scruffy, can you give us a heads up of what you will be implementing next week ?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Luninareph

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
We still have plans for Skarner, mostly in the realm of bringing excitement and a bit of the old identity that people liked about the old Skarner back.

We can keep a lot of the gameplay gains (versatility, windows of power/weakness) and add a bit more stickiness/cc control that people liked about the old kit. I've been in ongoing discussions about these changes with a lot of the team, and I should get down to implementing them sometime next week. When we have a more final changelist, I'll let you know what we intend to do.
It's really nice to see this much attention being paid to the feel of old!Skarner

I'm sure I'll get lambasted for the subject change, but may I inquire, Scruffy, whether there is anybody willing to give that kind of consideration to the feel of old!Karma as well?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Limbo Pete

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
We still have plans for Skarner, mostly in the realm of bringing excitement and a bit of the old identity that people liked about the old Skarner back.

We can keep a lot of the gameplay gains (versatility, windows of power/weakness) and add a bit more stickiness/cc control that people liked about the old kit. I've been in ongoing discussions about these changes with a lot of the team, and I should get down to implementing them sometime next week. When we have a more final changelist, I'll let you know what we intend to do.
Thank you, Scruffy. I feel I speak for most of us when I say this communication is much appreciated.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Venus Project

Member

04-06-2014

sharing some testimony, i started to play Rumble just a bit before his skin release a few weeks ago when i decided to drop Skarner, since i thought he was gonna get swept under the rug and since no red ever replied to "what's gonna happen with Skarner", but just came back to give him another try now that Xelnath and Scruffy recently gave word on "not giving him up" "yet". Skarner is my favorite champ, so it will make sad to drop him for another champ, so far after I tried champs like Fizz, Yorick, Nasus, and Viktor. why? he has a shield, he moves fast, can hook targets and can deal some dmg, "Versality" he may not be 100% good at any of them but he can do them all in some way. Best thing of all his is a creature scorpion

so please Scruffy, i hope you surprise us with something good next week.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

jimmy the hand

Senior Member

04-06-2014

I like the Skarner changes actually, the two things I don't like though is how difficult it is to land his slow, and the fact that you aren't lowering his cd's durring his ult. If his E was shaped more like Aatrox's slow I think it would be perfect, and it just feels ****ty ulting someone and then suddenly you can't cast Q because you can't autoattack.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

encyclopedea

Senior Member

04-06-2014

I had an interesting idea for a Skarner rework/retune while in the shower, which was inspired by URF mode. As you will know if you have played Skarner on URF, it feels quite nice to be able to spam anything and everything. Skarner is tanky because of his constant shield, and if you stand there and have a slugfest with him, his shield never disappears because it is pretty much up every second. His Q is a powerful source of damage, able to be spammed multiple times per second. His E and R are powerful as well, but I'm choosing just to focus on the Q and W for this retune concept.


The concept behind this retune is just what was stated above- quick spamming of abilities, which only intensifies if you let him stay too close for too long. I won't include too many numbers, because this is only a concept, but there will be a few which are related to cooldowns (for the most part).


Q:

  • Lowered cooldown:1.75-2 seconds across all ranks
  • Removal of the Empowered effect (and probably slight damage reduction)
  • Decrease of the power of each attack speed buff, but increase in the number of stacks (at max stacks, you should have the same amounts of attack speed as are currently present).
  • Decreased mana cost

W:
  • Lowered cooldown: 6 seconds across all ranks (or around there)
  • Lowered duration: 4 seconds
  • Ramps up to a lower movespeed boost over 2 seconds
  • Lowered shield amounts
  • Decreased mana cost
  • STACKS WITH ITSELF (max 3) BUT DOES NOT REFRESH THE DURATION OF THE STACKS (unless the cap has already been reached)- falls off by 1 each time (both shield and movement speed stack)
  • When activated, empowers the next Q within ~0.5 seconds to deal increased damage and slow the target by a small amount for 1 second (probably a little less).

E:
  • Some sort of small increase to the catching power on the E (just enough to get to the target), but left at a medium high to high cooldown.

R: Left the same


This would make Skarner much more spammy, as well as making the kit much more centered around his passive. If you stand and fight him, he quickly becomes an absolute nightmare between his fast, sustained damage, his constant shields, and his sticking power. His E becomes more of an engagement tool, while his W-Q interaction gives him the sticking power he so desperately wants and needs. Good Skarners are separated from bad Skarners not by how well they shoot a skillshot (although that remains a factor), but by how they manage their cooldowns so that they can get the most amount of Qs off and don't miss any empowered Qs. Permaslow remains impossible- even with 40% cdr and 2.5 attack speed and beyond Faker-level mechanics, targets will have a slow-free period of 0.6 seconds each round, although they still have to deal with Skarner's speed boost, unless they break the shield. Skarners can get 2 stacks of W up with max CDR or with champion auto-attacks, but only get 3 up at a time with high attack speed or a heft investment into both CDR and attack speed. Enemies can still counter him with CC, by staying away, or by breaking the shield quickly (a combination of 2 or 3 of these is the best). The damage from the Q is powerful, but limited by mechanics, CDR, and attack speed- at the high end, you can get off a consistent 2-3 per second.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ElsavonSpielburg

Junior Member

04-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
We still have plans for Skarner, mostly in the realm of bringing excitement and a bit of the old identity that people liked about the old Skarner back.

We can keep a lot of the gameplay gains (versatility, windows of power/weakness) and add a bit more stickiness/cc control that people liked about the old kit. I've been in ongoing discussions about these changes with a lot of the team, and I should get down to implementing them sometime next week. When we have a more final changelist, I'll let you know what we intend to do.
Well this seems like good news, but it's so terribly vague

What does "bringing back excitement" mean to you guys? For myself, it's adding in meaningful interactions to his abilities but this could be anything really which is the worry. Will this be a larger change than just lowering some CDs here, and increase some values there?

Skarners old identity? Does it matter? I thought we just wanted cohesion within the kit and for him to have a solid identity and role. Just tell us what that identity is and give us a kit that supports that.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EchoezOfRain

Senior Member

04-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by encyclopedea View Post
I had an interesting idea for a Skarner rework/retune while in the shower, which was inspired by URF mode. As you will know if you have played Skarner on URF, it feels quite nice to be able to spam anything and everything. Skarner is tanky because of his constant shield, and if you stand there and have a slugfest with him, his shield never disappears because it is pretty much up every second. His Q is a powerful source of damage, able to be spammed multiple times per second. His E and R are powerful as well, but I'm choosing just to focus on the Q and W for this retune concept.


The concept behind this retune is just what was stated above- quick spamming of abilities, which only intensifies if you let him stay too close for too long. I won't include too many numbers, because this is only a concept, but there will be a few which are related to cooldowns (for the most part).


Q:
  • Lowered cooldown:1.75-2 seconds across all ranks
  • Removal of the Empowered effect (and probably slight damage reduction)
  • Decrease of the power of each attack speed buff, but increase in the number of stacks (at max stacks, you should have the same amounts of attack speed as are currently present).
  • Decreased mana cost

W:
  • Lowered cooldown: 6 seconds across all ranks (or around there)
  • Lowered duration: 4 seconds
  • Ramps up to a lower movespeed boost over 2 seconds
  • Lowered shield amounts
  • Decreased mana cost
  • STACKS WITH ITSELF (max 3) BUT DOES NOT REFRESH THE DURATION OF THE STACKS (unless the cap has already been reached)- falls off by 1 each time (both shield and movement speed stack)
  • When activated, empowers the next Q within ~0.5 seconds to deal increased damage and slow the target by a small amount for 1 second (probably a little less).

E:
  • Some sort of small increase to the catching power on the E (just enough to get to the target), but left at a medium high to high cooldown.

R: Left the same


This would make Skarner much more spammy, as well as making the kit much more centered around his passive. If you stand and fight him, he quickly becomes an absolute nightmare between his fast, sustained damage, his constant shields, and his sticking power. His E becomes more of an engagement tool, while his W-Q interaction gives him the sticking power he so desperately wants and needs. Good Skarners are separated from bad Skarners not by how well they shoot a skillshot (although that remains a factor), but by how they manage their cooldowns so that they can get the most amount of Qs off and don't miss any empowered Qs. Permaslow remains impossible- even with 40% cdr and 2.5 attack speed and beyond Faker-level mechanics, targets will have a slow-free period of 0.6 seconds each round, although they still have to deal with Skarner's speed boost, unless they break the shield. Skarners can get 2 stacks of W up with max CDR or with champion auto-attacks, but only get 3 up at a time with high attack speed or a heft investment into both CDR and attack speed. Enemies can still counter him with CC, by staying away, or by breaking the shield quickly (a combination of 2 or 3 of these is the best). The damage from the Q is powerful, but limited by mechanics, CDR, and attack speed- at the high end, you can get off a consistent 2-3 per second.
I like this. URF skarner actually feels good, especially with ap. in a way, its a bit like vlad in that he can get tanky just by building straight up ap, since skarner's W scales with ap. this is why urf skarner is scary, constant shield and spammy Q with ap is powerful and allows him to trade really well. I'd like if skarner could somehow get his heal back though...