Skarner Rework Follow Through

First Riot Post
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Krshna

Senior Member

03-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all, were still monitoring Skarner and seeing how much effect the 4.3 changes had (looks like a good amount so far). Expect more changes in upcoming patches if he is not powerful enough.
Looks like a good amount so far?

A story from the time recounts that Piero Soderino, the head of the powerful Florentine Republic, even told the famously irascible Michelangelo that David's nose was much too large. Michelangelo then hid some marble dust in his hand, climbed back up his ladder and pretended to do some more "chiseling" on the offending proboscis. While he did so, he let some marble dust fall from his hand. The pompous Soderino was fooled he examined the unchanged nose and announced it was much improved and far more "life-like."


This is all you did to Skarner. Look at the actual tweaks you made in the last patch. Tiny mana adjustments and ****.

He needs a core mechanic adjustment, one where once someone gets hit by the E, Qs and Autos extend the duration. Or, a flatly lower CD on E. Until then you are public enemy number 1 as far as Skarner players go.


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BeastManBob

Junior Member

03-05-2014

The fact remains that this kit needs some sort of functional, rather than numerical, buff to make people want to play this champion. Even if you buff his numbers, he still does not bring any function to a team that some other champion doesn't bring. Look at it this way. If you nerfed Thresh's ratios and stats, people would still want to play Thresh because he has a very cohesive kit that offers unique abilities to a team. Here are some more ideas for additions that would make this reworked kit worthwhile.

1. It feels weird how the empowered Q works now. Hitting an empowered Q used to activate THE Skarner effect. Now the empowered Q feels so empty. What if his empowered Q was the only way for him to consume his marks?
A. Hitting a MARKED enemy with an empowered Q slows the enemy.
B. Hitting a MARKED enemy with an empowered Q heals Skarner.
C. Hitting a marked enemy with an empowered Q gives Skarner mana.

2. Q stacks fall off 1 by 1.

3. Q can be stacked whether or not it hits an enemy.

4. Hitting an empowered Q allows Skarner to attack on the move for a short duration.

5. Enemies that attack Skarner while W is active are marked.

6. While W is active, Skarner can attack on the move. (Additional idea, Skarner can move backwards during this ability by pressing W again while it is active).

7. While W is active, enemies that deal spell or attack damage to Skarner have their move and attack speed reduced.

8. Consuming the mark on E absolutely needs to do something. Otherwise get rid of the graphic.
A. Consuming the mark stuns the enemy.
B. Consuming the mark heals Skarner.
C. Consuming the mark extends the slow.

9. Skarner may attack the enemy he Ults during the Ult. This would make it a truly Hybrid damage ult and bring him closer to the days when he was a 1 v 1 beast.

10. Skarner's Ult marks the enemy.

Just some ideas. There are so many great ideas in this thread. It would be a shame if Riot continued to focus on the numbers of such an uninspired kit. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


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Shahamut

Senior Member

03-05-2014

Any chance we can hear from you again Scruffy? Or anyone from RIOT for that matter?

I still try to play him once in a while and the problems in general remain the same. Skarner didn't need a STRONGER slow, he needs a LONGER slow.

And he REALLY needs some sustain and Kit synergy. plz?


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Dazzabyss

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Recruiter

03-05-2014

My Background:
I like to play Dominion a lot, especially with Skarner. I know Riot likes to aim balance on SR, so I'll try to make comments on his role in SR, but forgive me if wonder away from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Permanent slow in melee range often only created two situations for Skarner, the case where he catches someone and they can never escape and the case where he can't ever engage on his target. The winner of fights often revolved around who had more items, not who made the better plays. We hope to create more situations where Skarner catches a target in the first place, but more opportunity for escape one the target has been caught.
On the fighter aspect of Skarner:
There's been a lot of talk about giving those who fight Skarner a chance to escape (i.e. a counterplay). But what about giving Skarner something that allows him to execute a counterplay himself? As I see it, Skarner is very predictable. "Oh, he used his shield, he must want to fight." The only unpredictable thing he has is his E, since that can be cast any direction, regardless of which way he is moving.

His current E slow isn't good fighting, either. I cannot fully utilize my DPS because I can't stick to the target. Whenever I meet the enemy jungler, I couldn't do much. When I was against Riven, she would just dance, stun, auto-attack and dash away. Xin Zhao would dash in, auto attack until the knockup, then walk away. Then I look like an idiot trying to chase them. All the DPS, but no one to use it on!

On the CC/Tank aspect of Skarner:
Man, I really wanted to say something, but I'm just not experienced with SR. I guess he's tanky enough, but he barely has any CC. One long cooldown slow? Jynx has more CC than that. His ult barely counts, because he can't use his ult any time he wants - he has to go up to his target first.

All in all:
When I play Skarner, I like to think, "You wanna mess with the scorpion? You're gonna get stung. So think twice before engaging." His mechanics require him to be in melee range. When he's not, he's not very scary. If we want to keep Skarner's mechanics melee-range, we must also make him a threat within that range, especially if all he can do is movement speed.

I like RiotScruffy's suggestion: Slow on E, Marks units, then prolonged/better slow when marked unit get damaged by Skarner. It'll give him more CC. He'll be able to stick to his target. Enemies will know that when they've been marked, Skarner is coming after them!

Sidenote:
You gotta do something about the animation on his charged Q. On old Skarner: it looks and sounds powerful, and signifies permaslow! On new Skarner, I am suffering from a disconnect between how powerful it looks, and how it barely does anything. Yes, it does more damage, but it's nothing breathtaking.


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Karede

Senior Member

03-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastManBob View Post
The fact remains that this kit needs some sort of functional, rather than numerical, buff to make people want to play this champion. Even if you buff his numbers, he still does not bring any function to a team that some other champion doesn't bring. Look at it this way. If you nerfed Thresh's ratios and stats, people would still want to play Thresh because he has a very cohesive kit that offers unique abilities to a team. Here are some more ideas for additions that would make this reworked kit worthwhile.

1. It feels weird how the empowered Q works now. Hitting an empowered Q used to activate THE Skarner effect. Now the empowered Q feels so empty. What if his empowered Q was the only way for him to consume his marks?

8. Consuming the mark on E absolutely needs to do something. Otherwise get rid of the graphic.
This is why some people are saying things like "Taking away Skarner's permaslow is like taking away Blitzcrank's grab, or Amumu's Ult" It's not that blitz can't play the game anymore if you do that - he can. He can play. It's just that he's not at all the same champ anymore, and the rest of the kit doesn't matter, because EVERYTHING they gave blitz had the idea of pulling the champion in mind. It would ruin the champion. For amumu, it's not like he would be without his gapclose stun, or without his fair amount of burst on E. But why the **** would anybody play that champ without his giant AoE stun?

The same is true with Skarner. His shield is fine, but not a defining skill. A movement speed buff is a good idea on him, although this ramp-up **** needs to be ditched. A ranged attack with E doesn't break anything, although it's a boring copout. What REALLY makes the kit work, though, was the permaslow, the passive cdr, and the ult. That's the bread and butter. The rest, W and E, is just the icing.

So now we have no bread and butter, and just a bunch of icing. Why would anybody play this champ?


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mikitexas

Senior Member

03-05-2014

Skarner it's the most MEH! champ in the history of the league , the ult last for so little time also the slow barely allow him to catch ppl , even if u are winning the match seems that u are doing nothing for your team , really, he is not fun to play , u don't feel great doing plays , u just feel meh!!!.


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Cooldude1234

Senior Member

03-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all, were still monitoring Skarner and seeing how much effect the 4.3 changes had (looks like a good amount so far). Expect more changes in upcoming patches if he is not powerful enough.
He's dropping in pick and win rate....What exactly do you consider "looks like a good amount so far"? Don't get me wrong I'm glad you are still kinda here, but it feels as though you have blinders on and are pretty ignorant to fact that it's not the numbers that are the problem with skarner..it's his kit that was reworked for no reason. How about asking pro players how they feel? I really hope you are going to be working on Skarner until he's viable (aka picked more than once in the LCS)


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Kagami

Senior Member

03-05-2014

Personally I really would like for skarner's q stacks to fall off a bit less quickly it's really annoying to lose all the stacks between every jungle camp atm.


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Velkoz Reloaded

Senior Member

03-05-2014

I understand that Riot may not follow any ideas posted on here but I'd still like to throw something out there.

Skarner is supposed to be the predatory-ish scorpion creature (while at the same time he's magic with the crystal energy).

Again, comparing to Xerath. Xerath's rework was about making him into the sniper mage that Riot wanted him to be. His kit is terrifying in spite of a fairly hard to land ultimate and all of his abilities scream "I CAN POKE YOU!" He was given a new animation (his stun), a slow attached to his former ultimate and now a quick shooting ultimate that covers a significant portion of the map.

Skarner's rework was about counterplay. Why Mundo, Ashe and a few others are allowed the removed slows, I'm unsure but the fact remains that it happened and it won't change. Skarner's old kit screamed "I CAN CATCH YOU!"
Skarner's new kit screams "I THINK I CAN SORT OF TRY TO GET CLOSE BUT NOT REALLY CATCH YOU!"

Skarner has little to no theme right now either. Is he supposed to be a magic user? Or a scorpion? or both? Something else entirely? I'm not really sure.

He has a Q that gives him an attack speed bonus to .... help his passive... which helps him cast his Q?
He has a W that gives him a ramping up movement speed bonus a.k.a not really a movement speed bonus
He has a slow that provides him a short window to try and clear the gap before... oh look they rolled/dashed/jumped away
He has an R that was and kind of is his defining ability but is really the only thing he can do IF he's lucky enough to get close to someone.

Somethings I've seen suggested: burrows, dashes, taunts, roots, stuns, more slows, etc. One thing they all have in common: CROWD CONTROL. CROWD CONTROL. CROWD CONTROL.
Why? I dunno maybe because in the current meta of mobility, it doesn't matter what you can do to the person in front of you if you can't catch them. Can Skarner do this in the hands of a reasonably skilled player vs someone of the same skill? No, not really.


So. Can we get something? I suppose using the marks to activate some sort of cc could be a reasonable idea but I'd still like to see an actual rework.

Passive: something new. Something. I don't care what. Something that HELPS HIS KIT. Maybe he gains movement speed up to a point while out of combat (wink wink) or something similar to Teemo's?
Q: How about some sort of crowd control. It doesn't have to be a permaslow. But I'd take a stun, a knock up, a taunt, anything really. To stick with the theme of a scorpion, if they catch prey, they crush it. So maybe Skarner's Q could be a reduction to armor/magic resist as he crushes you with his claws.
W: Speed boost doesn't really do much in this meta of DASHES. So how about Skarner Taunts/Charms his prey or some OTHER sort of crowd control. Maybe Skarner Burrows into the ground and is stealthed but unable to move. He can then reactivate the ability to launch himself a short distance.
E: If this is supposed to be the sting, then how about some sort of damage over time, or heck, a stacking slow would be kind of cool. Skarner launches a small area of slowing poison that slows damages targets over time. It builds stacks the longer the target stays in the field, slowing them further.
R: If his kit had some other cohesion. I'd say change this too. I like his ult as is but I'd be willing to see something new here IF IT MADE THE CHAMPION FUN TO PLAY AND VIABLE TO DO SOMETHING FOR YOUR TEAM.


Because as it is, Skarner has nothing to offer his team that another champ can't do BETTER.

If Skarner is supposed to be a damaging carry as is implied by the current tweaks in numbers then just tell us outright and give us the stats to make him a monster duelist so those of us that played the cc machine can just give up and move on.
If you're trying to define his identity or change it but still keep it consistent with a fine line between cc and fight, then TELL us and show us you're listening.
If you're trying to turn him into a cc machine like the top junglers right now... Well... You're off to a terrible start.


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Shahamut

Senior Member

03-05-2014

It is sad, but true RIOT. Skarner and his kit don't really scream anything other than useless.

Also, why look at pick rate and win rate to see if a champ is doing well? Why not look at his BAN rate?

If no one is banning him, it means no one is afraid of him. This is certainly the case atm. There is nothing about Skarner that is terrifying to behold. Give him some REAL love guys!