@Riot Updates on Shaco rework

First Riot Post
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Amoralism

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFS All is OP View Post
Here's why I don't get... why can't champs that are in line for reworks get buffed if their rework is far off from being live?

Why do we have to do this dance every rework where the thing gets completely gutted and has to wait a year or more before the rework comes?

Why can't they be even halfway on par with more modern champs in the interim rather than this long arduous wait for a player to be able to play their favorite champ without getting yelled at by allies?
I agree, the amount of a time a champion stays unviable for is way too long.


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explosiveshadow

Member

02-02-2014

I agree with the point above me. But, I understand Why it would take up to a year to rework a champ. The biggest thing is that they don't want a simalar situation to Old Karma mains where those people are eternally angry at riot. From what I understand they changed her kit to make it viable, but there was no regard for the "feel" of Karma thus angering everybody who played old Karma. I could easily see this happening for Shaco because of his very unique kit. So (hopefully) they'll try and have a balance between the "feel" of him and his viablility.


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Angler Jax

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Senior Member

02-02-2014

I rarely use Shaco's ult, only when I'm AP or trying to bait, It would be nice if they changed it to a full time 5500 units clone, that way you can do neat stuff such as farming while ganking, or ganking with clone and what not, as long as they leave his Q as is I wouldn't care much, its pretty much Q that defines Shaco, and if thats removed then hes no longer fun and there are better assassins than him anyways, so please just keep his Q.


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ceaselessphantom

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Tam View Post
2. He fails his gank (mostly due to his own inability, because of the difficulty of warding against him)
or he fails because he is the only champion in League who has a skill that's activation can be seen from the fog of war.


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Back2Nexus

Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
He's best played as a split-pusher who is nigh uncatchable, an assassin who can't team fight, an ambusher who can't be countered, if you are chasing him into a next(p.s. does anyone know if red trinket disables his boxes or not?)

and once he starts to get ahead of you, he has a permanent slow in addition to a backstab + crit multiplier - aka, once he wins, if he catches you away from a tower, you don't have a good way to escape.
I agree with everything except for the fact that other champs don't have a good way to escape from him. The only way for Shaco to get close to another champ is to deceive into them... therefore if the enemy champion has any form of dash/escape after Shaco's deceive is down then the perma slow isn't going to be enough to stop them from kiting you. I recall multiple times where I was ridiculously fed but still could not beat champions like vayne or graves due to their ability to kite and dash/tumble for days.


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Granty

Junior Member

02-02-2014

Shaco has been my favourite champion in the entire game since I started playing a year ago, but I found him too hard to use when I started so I ended up not playing him completely, once time went on and I was Level 30 already, I was worried to play him because he is considered a very weak/troll champion by everyone so I didn't bother to try.

Last year, I noticed that there were a fair number of Shaco's in Korean high elo so I decided to spectate one game to see how it goes, it was there that I learned that Shaco can swing to be either the most unstoppable champion in the game or the most useless depending on how well the game goes for him.

When you watch these players, you see that Shaco is probably the champion with the highest ability to outplay the enemy through mind games; "'I wonder if he's in my lane right now...' 'Where did he go?' 'Should I try to flash for him?' 'Is that him or his clone?'" and that is the reason that I find him very attractive to both watch and play, if you have more game sense than your opponent, you should almost always come out ahead as Shaco.

I've watched these Diamond 1 Shaco players for months, almost daily and multiple times a day to maybe learn something new or just be amazed by their play.

Recently I started playing him, and I've had some success, (my Season 4 placements: http://i.imgur.com/3jGY0gW.png) however every game I've played as him I've been hated by both my teammates and enemy, getting flamed in champion select by my team and then getting hated by the enemy team for living in their jungle.

So as someone with not so much Shaco gameplay experience, but a lot of watching experience, these are my opinion on both Shaco's identity, current Shaco and his problems.

Identity: In my opinion Shaco's identity visually and how he should feel in game is the twisted insane clown who instills fear and plays games with his opponents mind. I think that Shaco's core skill identity, despite being probably the biggest problem Shaco has, is Deceive. Deceive is the reason that I and I assume other people got attracted to the champion in the first place, so I think that the reworked Shaco must keep this skill and as a result his other abilities should be balanced around the power of it. Shaco's clone is also a big part of his identity that must be kept, and I believe Morello said he had some cool ideas for how the clone can work.


Current Shaco:

Backstab - Passive: Shaco deals 20% bonus damage when striking a unit from behind with his autoattacks or abilities.

Deceive - Q:
Range: 400
Cooldown: 11 seconds after exiting stealth
Cost: 90 / 80 / 70 / 60 / 50 mana

Active: Shaco instantly blinks to a target nearby location and enters stealth for up to 3.5 seconds. His next auto-attack within 6 seconds is guaranteed to critically strike for modified base critical damage. Bonus critical strike damage from other sources are also applied.

Base Critical Damage: 140 / 160 / 180 / 200 / 220%

Jack in The Box - W:
Range: 425
Cooldown: 16
Cost: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 mana

Active: Shaco creates a Jack in the Box at the target location with 150 health. It will stealth after 2 seconds and lasts a maximum of 60 seconds. When an enemy comes near the box it activates and comes out of stealth, fearing nearby enemies briefly and attacking them for 5 seconds, dealing magic damage with its attacks. Casting Jack In The Box breaks stealth.

Trigger Range: 300
Sight Range: 700 (estimate)
Attack Speed: 1.6 (Attacks 9 times in 5 seconds)
Armor: 50
Magic Resist: 100

Fear Duration: 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 / 1.25 / 1.5
Magic Damage: 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 (+ 20% AP)
Total Magic Damage *Estimate*: 315 / 450 / 585 / 720 / 855 (+ 180% AP)

Two-Shiv Poison - E:
Range: 625
Cooldown: 8
Cost: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 mana

Passive: Shaco's autoattacks slow the target for 2 seconds. It also gives affected non-champion units a chance to miss their attacks

Active: Shaco throws a dagger at a target enemy, dealing magic damage and slowing them for 3 seconds. The passive is deactivated during the cooldown.

Magic Damage: 50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 (+ 100% AP) (+ 100% bonus AD)

Magic Damage with Backstab bonus: 60 / 108 / 156 / 204 / 252 (+ 120% AP) (+ 120% bonus AD)

Hallucinate - R:
Cooldown: 100 / 90 / 80
Cost: 100 mana

Active: Shaco disappears from the map and becomes untargetable for 0.5 seconds, then creates a clone of himself that lasts for up to 18 seconds. The clone deals 75% of Shaco's damage and receives 50% extra damage. This clone deals 50% damage to towers and inhibitors. At the end of its duration or when dying the clone will explode, dealing magic damage to nearby enemies within 250 range.

Leash Radius: 1125

Magic Damage: 300 / 450 / 600 (+ 100% AP)


Skill usage:

Deceive - Q: Mobility, blinks in particular are very strong in this game so when you add stealth onto that the skill becomes very strong. Deceive is one of the best skills for ganking, escaping, ambushing as well as general mobility.

Jack in The Box - W: Gives Shaco the fastest Lv1 jungle clear in the game as well as giving him some survivability in the jungle, during ganks you can sometimes get the Jack in The Box to activate for the CC but not always. During the game it is mostly used as a scout and also some bonus CC. Late game the CC that the box gives can be enough to kill the enemy squishy 100 to 0 before the CC ends.

Two-Shiv Poison - E: Active: skill is Shaco's only ranged DPS and it is good targetted CC, can be paired with Deceive in order to artificially extend the range of the skill.
Passive: The Two-Shiv Poison perma-slow passive is strong when snowballing and also when chasing the enemy jungler in his jungle.

Hallucinate - R: Good for 1v1'ing, baiting enemy summoners/ults/general cooldowns, juking, dodging skills or tower shots by timing the invincibility correctly, good for tower diving, soloing dragon, doing baron and doing more damage to towers/inhibs/nexus.

Summary of kit problems:

Backstab - Passive: is snowbally, deceptive, inconsistent and hidden power. Shaco's passive is actually extremely strong and I feel that Shaco's passive is problematic for three reasons.
1) You have to be experienced with the game and champion in order to take full advantage of it.
2) It can feel very situational because sometimes you will be able to consistently get a higher damage output, and other times not meaning the player gets an inconsistent feel about how much damage they can actually do and enemy gets an inconsistent feel on how much damage he will do.
3)(The biggest problem I think) This passive somewhat forces the opponent to straight 1v1 you. Shaco's E perma-slow passive or the slow from the active, along with Shaco's build path which typically involves a Statik Shiv and being a jungler, having red buff on him isn't unusual for some parts of the early~mid game means that you can constantly keep up with opponents via movespeed buffs and slows while auto attacking them, so that gives them two choices. 1) You keep trying to run to safety from this Shaco, but you will be taking 20% bonus damage as a result or 2) You try to straight 1v1 him, killing him before he kills you and hope that you do enough damage. I feel that this is very problematic and doesn't really add much gameplay, it's just bonus damage to try and abuse.

Deceive - Q: Combines the problems of mobility, blinks and stealth that League of Legends has.

Jack in The Box - W: Gives him a godly Lv1 clear time meaning he can counter jungle extremely effectively and as early as the first camp dies but, doesn't feel very satisfying in use despite being an extremely useful scout because the damage the skill does feels completely meaningless throughout the game and it isn't a very fluid 'in-combat' skill.

Two-Shiv Poison - E: Passive perma-slow passive is anti-fun and snowbally, and the minion/monster blind passive feels completely useless to the point where I often forget it even exists.

Hallucinate - R: Can either be useless or can bait the entire enemy team to burn summoners and ults or to gain your team a dragon without the enemy even realizing and if you get given the chance while split-pushing, you can destroy their towers so fast meaning they have to choose between playing a game of catch the Shaco or lose their base. When using Shaco, a problem with Hallucinate is that you can't use any abilities while it's active because otherwise it will clearly indicate which is you.

Summed up opinion on what the rework should be:

Backstab - Passive: Should be changed to something more consistent or more interactive/satisfying.

Deceive - Q: Must stay but the rest of the abilities should have their strength based around the power Deceive gives.

Jack in The Box - W: Should be changed to feel more satisfying while 'in-combat' as opposed to just being a scout tool and the skill should scale with AD so that the skill doesn't feel completely pointless for damage.

Two-Shiv Poison - E: Should remove the passives and spread the power throughout the other skills.

Hallucinate - R: Rather than just spawning a fake Shaco that can only run and auto attack, I feel it would be more interesting and fun if the clone would mimic the real Shaco's abilities, allowing Shaco players to use skills while using the ult instead of just auto-attacking to not give the game away.

If I were to remove any skill it would be Jack in The Box and if I were to change any other it would be Hallucinate, to a more interesting design.


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ReportThisShaco

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back2Nexus View Post
I agree with everything except for the fact that other champs don't have a good way to escape from him. The only way for Shaco to get close to another champ is to deceive into them... therefore if the enemy champion has any form of dash/escape after Shaco's deceive is down then the perma slow isn't going to be enough to stop them from kiting you. I recall multiple times where I was ridiculously fed but still could not beat champions like vayne or graves due to their ability to kite and dash/tumble for days.
If you can't kill the adc then you're not building for it or the enemy adc is far more fed/farmed than you are. Vayne is probably the most difficult to kill though, as well as Tristana. Also if they run into a box then its a guaranteed kill.

I honestly don't think Shaco needs a rework because it is difficult enough to get fed since you rely on laners/junglers that are gankable, plus you fall off harder than other junglers if you die early from getting outplayed/making a mistake. In 80-90% of games you're sentenced to split pushing which can fail miserably with the wrong team comp or teammates who get caught out. Sure split pushing can be extremely effective, but Shaco's not the only split pushing champion (see Tryndamere). You could argue that he's the best at it, but unless he's super-fed, that's the only thing he can do.

Shaco's ganks are overrated as well. Sure he can bypass wards, but Eve can do it even easier. Wards aren't guaranteed safety either, people don't always ward consistently or in the right places. Sure I have gotten fed many times as Shaco, but I've done it with many other junglers just as easily because, guess what, other junglers are made for ganking as well.

Shaco is fun and viable when played correctly. There's plenty of high Elo Shaco players as evidence. He's a strong split pusher, but by no means OP. He can be killed by using a strange new item called "pink ward". I get that players are excited by new content, but I would rather leave him the way he is than risk destroying Shaco so that every noob and their mother starts playing him. Remember, this champ that thrives on people not having much experience playing against him.


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Gruntilda

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Sometimes true, depends on what the rework involves and why it's being done though. Reworks generally fall into one of a few different categories:

1. Those that accompany a visual upgrade for a champion. Sivir's a good example of this, where our art team had plans for an upgrade to Sivir's appearance so we took the opportunity to pair some gameplay changes with that upgrade. Visual upgrades are great opportunities to do valuable, not not immediately urgent, gameplay work on a champion, because since animations/particles/sound etc are being redone anyway changing how abilities function is easy to support.

Timing on these reworks is tied to the readiness of the visual upgrade.


2. Those done because a character has gameplay issues that are creating significant problems at present. This is the category that Kassadin and Rengar currently fall into. This is the most urgent category, and one where we'll put a lot of focused effort into finding a solution, since the alternative's nerfing the champion so much the issue's aren't a major problem (something we're really trying to avoid where possible).

Timing on these reworks is dependent on how quickly we can identify and valid an appropriate solution to gameplay problems.


3. Reworks on a champion who's not a major problem, but has the potential, with some adjustments bigger than just number tweaks, to be healthier, more effective, a better take on their theme etc. This is the category Shaco falls into. He's not creating massive problems, but he struggles if unable to snowball and/or splitpush, and can be a noticeably more frustrating experience than average to play against.

Timing on these reworks can be variable, since they're much more dependent on how well an initial idea works out, what other responsibilities the person working on the rework also has and whether other emergent works pops up that needs to take priority (e.g. reworks from category 2 above).


4. Reworks on champions that aren't in particular need of work, and may even be really good already, but that someone believes could be better still. These reworks are side projects, sometimes done in someone's own time, because they've got some cool ideas they want to test out/a vision for how a champion could be better. The Miss Fortune changes ricklessabandon's testing at the moment are a good example of this. MF's not a problem, fun to play and well designed. That's not to say there might not be some good opportunities to smooth out some smaller stuff or enhance her play a bit though.

Timing on these reworks is extremely variable and these are the reworks most likely to get put aside (most often because an idea, when investigated and tested didn't work out, sometimes because something does work well but is a better fit for another rework, new champion or an item).


Finally, a couple of comments on Shaco:

1. We're still working on Shaco. Other reworks however are being given a higher priority (Xerath/Skarner being close to done, Sion being a major project that's in the early stages, Kassadin and Rengar both having much more urgent needs due to their impact on game health/other players, a couple of low gameplay impact reworks to accompany visual upgrades).

2. Shaco's a pretty difficult character to rework well. It'd be really easy to just strip away all his problematic elements and in the process remove many of his tricks and distinctive skills that people really enjoy when playing him. Finding the correct ways to fix his issues and preserve as much of his gameplay identity as possible however is much tougher, involving a lot more analysis, playtesting, iteration and sometimes, if something isn't working as hoped, restarting, than many other champions would.


Hope that explains a bit on why rework timing can vary, and why it can be hard to make any concrete estimates or promises on a rework's ETA.

TLDR: Lots of different types of rework, Shaco's a tricky one.
so why not just gut Kassadin and Rengar like you did Shaco, buff Shaco a little bit, and then rework him?


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Amoralism

Senior Member

02-02-2014

I think his power needs to be more distributed around his skills.


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Kr1sys

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
He's best played as a split-pusher who is nigh uncatchable, an assassin who can't team fight, an ambusher who can't be countered, if you are chasing him into a next(p.s. does anyone know if red trinket disables his boxes or not?)
This really concerns me about how much Riot knows of their own game.