@Riot Updates on Shaco rework

First Riot Post
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NVDax

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Reworks can take like a year and sometimes get canned or sent back to the drawing board repeatedly. I wouldn't expect too much in the way of updates for a while.

Edit:

Reworks take a long time. Xerath had 18 thrown away kits before he got to PBE. Shaco's going through similar kinds of exploration to distill the best features of his kit. See Meddler's post for details - I know it sucks to hear, but Shaco is a lower priority than Sion, Skarner, Xerath and some other champions.
Don't say that! I have to have hope gp's rework will be good, and that it will come out as soon as possible!


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Inciflahrdus

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Can any Red say anything about a Nunu&Willump rework?
They looks like taken alive from Sesame Street (I see a positives here).
They are toxic/unfun as sololaner (both mana and health sustain) and as jungler (second personal smite).
They are underperforming as support (Riots intended role for them).

Not even in circle of interest? Being looked upon? Somewhere in pipeline? Anything?


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FFS All is OP

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Here's why I don't get... why can't champs that are in line for reworks get buffed if their rework is far off from being live?

Why do we have to do this dance every rework where the thing gets completely gutted and has to wait a year or more before the rework comes?

Why can't they be even halfway on par with more modern champs in the interim rather than this long arduous wait for a player to be able to play their favorite champ without getting yelled at by allies?


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Doctor Tam

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post


2. Those done because a character has gameplay issues that are creating significant problems at present. This is the category that Kassadin and Rengar currently fall into. This is the most urgent category, and one where we'll put a lot of focused effort into finding a solution, since the alternative's nerfing the champion so much the issue's aren't a major problem (something we're really trying to avoid where possible).

Timing on these reworks is dependent on how quickly we can identify and valid an appropriate solution to gameplay problems.


3. Reworks on a champion who's not a major problem, but has the potential, with some adjustments bigger than just number tweaks, to be healthier, more effective, a better take on their theme etc. This is the category Shaco falls into. He's not creating massive problems, but he struggles if unable to snowball and/or splitpush, and can be a noticeably more frustrating experience than average to play against.

Timing on these reworks can be variable, since they're much more dependent on how well an initial idea works out, what other responsibilities the person working on the rework also has and whether other emergent works pops up that needs to take priority (e.g. reworks from category 2 above).
Shaco is definitely more of a class 2 issue here. The scenarios are:

1. He ganks correctly, you die because of his high early damage/cc/stealth. He has one of the best ganking kits in the game
2. He fails his gank (mostly due to his own inability, because of the difficulty of warding against him), and he dies/wastes time

And then, even if he does get the good ganks off, he will still just be a squishy assassin who jumps in, procs Shiv, and dies shortly after. So while the enemy team SUFFERS from his ridiculous ganks, his own team has to deal with basically missing a champ come later teamfights.

I would much rather deal with a Rengar than a Shaco, its a lot easier to understand how a Rengar gank will go down than in what way Shaco is going to dismantle you (until the point where he can no longer 1v1 because he didn't get enough gold)


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Doctor Tam

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFS All is OP View Post
Here's why I don't get... why can't champs that are in line for reworks get buffed if their rework is far off from being live?

Why do we have to do this dance every rework where the thing gets completely gutted and has to wait a year or more before the rework comes?

Why can't they be even halfway on par with more modern champs in the interim rather than this long arduous wait for a player to be able to play their favorite champ without getting yelled at by allies?
Because most of the champs getting reworked are problematic. If Shaco got buffed solo queue might explode, same goes for Rengar.

I wish there had been an effort to make old Karma work, but Riot just didn't allocate any resources to trying to make her old kit work with appropriate numbers.


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FFS All is OP

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Tam View Post
Because most of the champs getting reworked are problematic. If Shaco got buffed solo queue might explode, same goes for Rengar.

I wish there had been an effort to make old Karma work, but Riot just didn't allocate any resources to trying to make her old kit work with appropriate numbers.
I'm not asking for the moon and stars. I'm asking for something, anything. Even something as tiny as having his buffs show up on his clone - no number changes at all. Give him +5 base ms. Give him 1s less jitb cooldown. I don't care what. It's still clear that he's woefully underpowered along with whoever else was deemed "toxic" and awaiting their reworks.

And meanwhile there are newer champs that really I could argue are just as "toxic" if not worse than shaco at a conceptual level.


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Kr1sys

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
I think shaco is fine with the removal of Oracles..
He's not though. The thing that changed with the S4 changes is that they gave him a late game by allowing him to actually be able to assassinate a carry since there's no oracles, but now his early game got hit pretty hard. You can still do well with him, it's just not anywhere near as easy as it was.


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Sarif Fice

Senior Member

02-02-2014

I have this idea that Shaco's jack in the box's will follow him around hopping cutely and circling him. I Do think they should still be target-able when activated to both help him by taking monster aggro while jungling, and allow counter play by AOE skills.

For every three minions/monsters shaco kills he spawns a box.
He can stack up to three.
On activation each box fears surrounding targets for .5 seconds, and shoots 3 lasers each.(one per second).

I am curious what you all think. I feel this would work for both AD shaco (close range fear like nocturne) and AP shaco (feeling of catching people with a nest and really spooking them, but melee and risky).


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FFS All is OP

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inciflahrdus View Post
Can any Red say anything about a Nunu&Willump rework?
They looks like taken alive from Sesame Street (I see a positives here).
They are toxic/unfun as sololaner (both mana and health sustain) and as jungler (second personal smite).
They are underperforming as support (Riots intended role for them).

Not even in circle of interest? Being looked upon? Somewhere in pipeline? Anything?
His intended role is a jungler.

It always has been.

If nunu was ever reworked into a pure support my head would explode.


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Relmmagus

Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
We realized it was a much bigger ball of yarn than it appeared to be. We had some specific ideas regarding his unique item, how to improve the feeling of his laser, etc. And it required a lot more work than we could support while getting trinkets, vision updates, new jungle, etc.

Since then, Solcrushed has still been looking at the jungle (see the new spirit stones and some work on the Wriggles line).

Post preseason, we took the time to sort out the reworks but I don't recall where he ended up.
Viktor has been my favorite mid character since he was released, at first i was really excited to hear he was getting looked at for buffs and such, but then i realized what that would mean, he already feels really strong to me, so to buff him i feel it would have a sivir effect, where the character was already pretty good, and then got some changes that made them get played more.

All of that being said, after reading some of rengars changes i feel like the simplest buff viktor could get to really improve him without giving him too much power, would be to make his hexcore a trinket at the start, and when used as an item it places a 90 second tiny drone(like the ult and recall from creator viktor) that acts as a ward and maybe beeps with a 180 second cooldown, essentially acting as a yellow trinket that doesn't upgrade at 9. and then make the 3 hexcores trinkets with effects matching their corresponding colored trinket, so yellow would be the full ward, blue the sight orb, and red the scanning trinket, each possibly even with a little drone that beeps. I really feel like this is all viktor needs as it allows him to still have his passive and now gives him a extra slot for a full build, while only giving up a very minor convenience for if the player wanted a specific trinket.