Morello I'm going to give you a proposition that you can not refute.

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DubblDip

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
"Top lane bruisers/tanks add gameplay to the game, while ADCs remove gameplay from the game."

Fact: Shyvana and Mundo being popular and strong picks have encouraged people to find counter picks, and Trundle with Warwick have shown up as counters to them and added new picks to the competitive game.

Fact: Jinx and Lucian being popular and strong picks have NOT encouraged people to find counter picks, but rather to just play the strongest ADCs since there's no counter play.

Fact: Popular top items like Sunfire and SV have encouraged their opponents to build counter items like BotRK to beat them.

Fact: Popular ADC items like ... anything have never done anything but encourage the current strongest setup to be spammed every game.

I think that writing constant love notes to ADCs (your patch notes) have done nothing but hurt the game over and over, and now entire gameplay mechanics have been added (8 minute turret armor) just to try and deal with ADCs.
What do you propose he do?


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Valenten

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Two possible attributions to that statement:

1) This is the weakest ADC's have been and they still have dictation over fights. The delta between Season 1 Corki and today is big - even Jinx is a shadow of yesterday's marskmen. The delta for long-time players can feel less explosive.

2) Marksmen have a weakness, and many top picks (Shyvana, Mundo, Gragas, Kassadin, Thresh) are safe, reliable and powerful. Being the one guy with an Achilles heel feels pretty bad, even if the problem is too few people have one.
That is my problem with League currently. The game is all about balancing the game around the meta instead of balancing around champions kits and the potential they have if fed. The other main problem is that you balance around the meta which no other moba does and that is exactly why league has the balance issues it has now. Once you fix those 2 things league will be in a very good balance state where any champion is used in competitive even brand, poppy, viktor, and skarner.


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first time Vayne

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
"less bad" is still... less bad.

ADCs are the worst right now. The game revolves around them yet they are a very boring class that never feels satisfying to play. How does that make for a good game?

And what's wrong with a rotating wall of hard counters? Better than rotating spreadsheet of who has the most Damage*survivability while auto attacking from range.
Whoa, Hash. Stop right there.

You're putting words in AD carry players' mouths here. Just because you do not enjoy playing AD carry champions does not mean others do not.

I agree with you and Morello that one class should not have a clear conceptual advantage over another in any circumstance, but you can't go around calling for an entire class to be nerfed because "it's not fun to play."

And a rotating wall of hard counters isn't fun because it makes the game simple and predictable. I don't want to play rock paper scissors for hours everyday. I WANT to play a game with a bigass, complicated spreadsheet behind it because that gives players room to make decisions and make every game and matchup and team fight different, creating unpredictability and excitement. It makes me have to adapt things. It pushes my intellectual limits in ways that rock paper scissors simply can't.

EDIT: If anything, having your dream world of pure melee top laners brawling it out -- your rock paper scissors game of rotating hard counters -- would be boring as hell to play. It's being the squishy little **** who threatens to kill your entire team that gets me excited. I want to have bruisers chasing me around trying to catch me, and I want to have my limits pushed trying to evade you in fights. That is variety of experience, and that is fun. If you don't think chasing me or having me pressure you is fun, then you are playing the wrong game.

It's not "melee bruiser" and "ranged AD carry" that LoL is built around. It's a whole slew of different classes pitted against each other, each using its specific strengths in durability, range, and damage style to achieve the same win conditions. And it's that variety created by the champions that makes it fun.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

My dream where it's 5v5 top lane and everyone is a bruiser.


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Buk Wild

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Lol I gota hand it to you Hash, you're pretty damn persistent. You've been jerking off Bruisers for over 3 years now, way back before the League of Bruisers happened when it wasn't even the cool thing to do.

I'm just glad Riot knows you're a joke and doesn't listen to your cancerous design philosophies.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by anAmishLady View Post
Whoa, Hash. Stop right there.

You're putting words in AD carry players' mouths here. Just because you do not enjoy playing AD carry champions does not mean others do not.

I agree with you and Morello that one class should not have a clear conceptual advantage over another in any circumstance, but you can't go around calling for an entire class to be nerfed because "it's not fun to play."

And a rotating wall of hard counters isn't fun because it makes the game simple and predictable. I don't want to play rock paper scissors for hours everyday. I WANT to play a game with a bigass, complicated spreadsheet behind it because that gives players room to make decisions and make every game and matchup and team fight different, creating unpredictability and excitement. It makes me have to adapt things. It pushes my intellectual limits in ways that rock paper scissors simply can't.

EDIT: If anything, having your dream world of pure melee top laners brawling it out -- your rock paper scissors game of rotating hard counters -- would be boring as hell to play. It's being the squishy little **** who threatens to kill your entire team that gets me excited. I want to have bruisers chasing me around trying to catch me, and I want to have my limits pushed trying to evade you in fights. That is variety of experience, and that is fun. If you don't think chasing me or having me pressure you is fun, then you are playing the wrong game.

It's not "melee bruiser" and "ranged AD carry" that LoL is built around. It's a whole slew of different classes pitted against each other, each using its specific strengths in durability, range, and damage style to achieve the same win conditions. And it's that variety created by the champions that makes it fun.
I don't think he doesn't want nerfs to ADCs in general, but changes to the style they are played (free range AA. The main skill you need is positioning). Like I said: Most of them are pure AA machines with soem utility skills.
Ez, Lucian and Varus for example are different. Lucian is still too good, but he is not a "stand there, right click -> move -> right click -> move" champ. He needs his Q to deal dmg and his passive needs to get triggered as often as possible.

ADCs are boring as a class mostly cause they are limited to using the safest and least skilled way to deal dmg. AA.
Ez doesn't do that. He needs to hit things with his Q for the CDR, he needs to cast skills for the passive AS boost and he needs to manage his mana. Without that gameplay that involves all his skills, he would not be nearly nothing in terms of dmg.

Now look at Vayne or Cait. They attack you and attack you. If you get close they also use a mobility skill to escape (or knock you away), but in between that, they only AA.


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oceaser12

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFirstOne View Post
a large majority of my games are decided bot lane before teamfights even start. 2 - 3 kills on the adc bot lane and game over. I always have ways more fun when the 2 item enemy adc doesnt ruin the game for the rest of us, and dont get me started on late game when everyone is just meat shields and the game is adc vs adc. NO FUN
U mean when 3 bruisers dive the enemy adc and insta gib them, then its a bruiser fight to the death? ya its not adc vs adc in the slighest


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Xyltin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceaser12 View Post
U mean when 3 bruisers dive the enemy adc and insta gib them, then its a bruiser fight to the death? ya its not adc vs adc in the slighest
You get 3 bruisers in one team? Top mid and jungle?
But mid lane bruisers are not good. Panth and Riven are played as assassins mid lane first and are going over to be brusiers later in the game (but especially panth stays squishy or deals no dmg late game).

And since when can't a decent tank defend his ADC. Get Cho, silence the bruiser, and knock them up around the ADC. The ADC (Ez) will blink out and stay safe for the time being.
Or use Orianna and E -> R -> W the 3 bruisers that want to kill the ADC. Gives your ADC Armor/MR and MS while the enemies are slowed and in the air while losing probably 50-75% of their HP.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buk Wild View Post
Lol I gota hand it to you Hash, you're pretty damn persistent. You've been jerking off Bruisers for over 3 years now, way back before the League of Bruisers happened when it wasn't even the cool thing to do.

I'm just glad Riot knows you're a joke and doesn't listen to your cancerous design philosophies.
He does joke around and his ways in the end are wrong, but when he starts, he often has an idea that is not wrong and he always talks about problems that actually exist.

Riot will not take his suggestions, but they will defintely think about the problem that he mentioned (or they did already do that).


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archonshope

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You shouldn't trust us to keep things intact when they invalidate a number of more rich or interactive options. I think we've earned that reputation fairly.
Hi morello,you stated more then enough you want to do an overhaul for the bruisers. I main bruisers, so needless to say but I'm pretty damn scared of what you or up to.


Can I ask you if you have thought about the consequence of this? I pretty much envision this turning ADCs back to king of the hill and we're right back to old boring S1 protect the carry comp. What will you do to prevent this from happening again?