Morello I'm going to give you a proposition that you can not refute.

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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by lojician View Post
Can you expand on that? If anything I think it's the opposite

Shyv is actually killable and has kill potential before she finishes an item. She has to land e to outdps you and has no dash so you can get free damage if you dash in cc and disengage. She's forced into melee range where interaction with other bruisers actually happens.

Mundo stands in the side bush and cses with cleavers while spamming ult if he's ever harassed down. I literally prefer laning vs teemo over mundo because at least my all ins and harass matter.
I think Mundo is more toxic in his current state than Shyvana.

I think that Mundo's kit is healthier, though. There are good tradeoffs built into his design. The problem here is that Riot absolutely doused season 4 in health sustain and it overpowered the tradeoff mechanics Mundo is supposed to have.

In particular, this cleaver spam pattern you're seeing in top lane, where Mundo feels totally comfortable farming with Q like he's Karthus or something, is entirely an invention of season 4.


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Shyvy

Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're speaking to a rotating wall of hard counters, which is actually very unhealthy. Jinx and Lucian are overtuned ADCs that lack clear weaknesses and overshadow characters who have them.

All good fighters' weaknesses are "some other fighter." I think Mundo is VERY salvagable with balance updates to give him play (he's just old), but Shyvana....
Please don't touch Shyvana :c


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NeoSeraphi

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Marksmen are just annoying in general. They are annoying to play against, and it's very unsatisfying to kill them. Marksmen are either really easy to kill (you show up, burst and they die) or the enemy team peels you off and you die. The only marksman that is actually "exciting" to duel against is Vayne because of the constant repositioning and stealth.

Honestly I'd rather just take the ranged element out of the game entirely. I know that will never happen, but if there was a MOBA with all melee champions where team fights were a combination of threat generation, GENUINE supporting, AOE and high burst (instead of mobility and kiting like League) I'd rather play that.


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
Marksmen are just annoying in general. They are annoying to play against, and it's very unsatisfying to kill them. Marksmen are either really easy to kill (you show up, burst and they die) or the enemy team peels you off and you die. The only marksman that is actually "exciting" to duel against is Vayne because of the constant repositioning and stealth.

Honestly I'd rather just take the ranged element out of the game entirely. I know that will never happen, but if there was a MOBA with all melee champions where team fights were a combination of threat generation, GENUINE supporting, AOE and high burst (instead of mobility and kiting like League) I'd rather play that.
There was genuine supporting from the entire team throughout all of S1 and S2. Riot ruined that when nobody can move in without hard engage due to how much resists suck now.


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I am TwistedFate

Recruiter

01-30-2014

All i have to say is that, if adc's are so weak (and "even pros say they're weak") then why would anyone keep playing them? Why would those very same pros continue to play them since they are soooo weak and bad right now? Why would the entire community continue to insist that there be an adc in every game? If fighters/Bruisers are so much stronger than them, why not play that instead of an adc bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maulkrieg View Post
There was genuine supporting from the entire team throughout all of S1 and S2. Riot ruined that when nobody can move in without hard engage due to how much resists suck now.
I fail to see how Riot made "resists suck", the only changed they received was when they reversed the order of %pen and flat pen and that will only affect you if every enemy buys large amounts of flat pen and an voidstaff/LastWhisper at the same time.


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I am TwistedFate

Recruiter

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
I think that Mundo's kit is healthier, though. There are good tradeoffs built into his design. The problem here is that Riot absolutely doused season 4 in health sustain and it overpowered the tradeoff mechanics Mundo is supposed to have.
Really? The new defense tree "doused season 4 in health sustain"? With what, that single mastery talent that gives health regen when you are lower health? How is that "dousing season 4 in health sustain"?


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dementis View Post
All i have to say is that, if adc's are so weak (and "even pros say they're weak") then why would anyone keep playing them? Why would those very same pros continue to play them since they are soooo weak and bad right now? Why would the entire community continue to insist that there be an adc in every game? If fighters/Bruisers are so much stronger than them, why not play that instead of an adc bot?



I fail to see how Riot made "resists suck", the only changed they received was when they reversed the order of %pen and flat pen and that will only affect you if every enemy buys large amounts of flat pen and an voidstaff/LastWhisper at the same time.
Increasing the cost while simultaneously reducing the amount of resists on items and improving penetration overall made them suck compared to before.

I would have rather had them rebalance the stats than make 3 hits against armor/MR at the same time.

What are you going to notice more? Two long swords, or a chain vest?

Of course, armor isn't a huge issue. Its good HP/armor itemization still allows it to function well enough. MR, however, is an entirely different story.


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MisterTitanic

Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Two possible attributions to that statement:

1) This is the weakest ADC's have been and they still have dictation over fights. The delta between Season 1 Corki and today is big - even Jinx is a shadow of yesterday's marskmen. The delta for long-time players can feel less explosive.

2) Marksmen have a weakness, and many top picks (Shyvana, Mundo, Gragas, Kassadin, Thresh) are safe, reliable and powerful. Being the one guy with an Achilles heel feels pretty bad, even if the problem is too few people have one.
I think the problem lie in the supports. Supports mitigate every single weakness that an ADC has. ADCs do not do an obscene amount of damage anymore. Right now the problem seems to be how much damage they do compared to their survivability. In which case you should look at Barrier, and the champion that is locking down divers such as Elise.


I think my problem is, is the fact that in the sake of inter-role balance, ADCs/Supports/Junglers all feel significantly less fun to play than their S1 counterparts.

It's back to a bruiser/AP game just like it was in S1


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Gorsz

Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by RexSaur View Post
Lmao, hashinshin never changes, the weakest class in the game is the most ''op'' one it seems, and the game should be balanced around champs like mundo and shyvana for him i guess.

I dont think theres a more biased top lane player than hashinshin in this planet, god forbid there are ppl that actually like playing adc (like me).


Yeah... he is incredibly bias for bruisers.


I guess in his eyes mundo is fair. Should be able to destroy everyone, and be unkillable. I guess that is balance.


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Demacian Dunk

Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorsz View Post
Yeah... he is incredibly bias for bruisers.


I guess in his eyes mundo is fair. Should be able to destroy everyone, and be unkillable. I guess that is balance.
dat apc circlejerk is strong

"I should be able to destroy everything from a safe distance with my great itemization while having nothing on me!!!!!111oneone"