Morello I'm going to give you a proposition that you can not refute.

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EUW ForumAcc

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You shouldn't trust us to keep things intact when they invalidate a number of more rich or interactive options.
Kinda like Marksmen invalidate melee carries?

Or any other non-AoE sustained damage character concept for that matter? When was the last time you ever saw a team wonder:"We need sustained damage, do we go for an ADC or take Cassiopeia/Karthus/Yi/Anyone?". Never - ADCs "are" the "sustained damage" niché. Unlike fighters, tanks, assassins, mages and supports, they can't be replaced by anything ever, because they're so overwhelming at what they do that they invalidate all other potential options. If you ever want to pick a sustained damage character that's not a carry, you have to do it "in addition" to a carry, not "instead", because they're just inferior to ADCs.

Furthermore, you yourself have stated that you had to put fighters in a miserable state of being stat hoarders to make them "viable" because of ADCs existing - they are the reason you were forced to make fighters less rich. You can not and will not solve that issue while ADCs still exist. And no, it's not "just an item problem" - it's a design problem. ADCs didn't invalidate fighters because they had too strong items. Their items didn't change when you released Xin. It's a problem with autoattacks dealing the largest portion of their damage while being free, ranged, targeted, double as sustain and with little to no cooldown. It's Vladimir squared, basically.

Quote:
[...]add needed structure and varying target desirability to a team fight, and allow other roles to take a position to protect the QB/set up a run/etc.
You called this exact thing "toxic" when discussing dedicated healers.

I can understand that dedicated healers have other detrimental effects, but calling THIS EXACT EFFECT toxic on dedicated healers and then calling it desirable on ADCs is just...confusing? Mindblowing? I'm afraid I don't have proper "nice" words to describe it. Anger inducing for sure.


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Kira Onime

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You shouldn't trust us to keep things intact when they invalidate a number of more rich or interactive options. I think we've earned that reputation fairly.

You've earned to reputation of nerfing everything that pops up and making them dissapear.


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davesmack

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
My dream where it's 5v5 top lane and everyone is a bruiser.

Someday...


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Holy Malevolence

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Are they unsatisfying for you, or in general game design terms? In game design terms, ADC's are quite satisfying to play well because of the highs/lows/impact of success/failure. Damage is high which has natural feedback loops built into health bars that are designed to feel great in a Pavlovian sense.

ADCs add needed structure and varying target desirability to a team fight, and allow other roles to take a position to protect the QB/set up a run/etc. I think some circumvent good play by lacking weaknesses (overtuned Vayne also comes to mind when that's a thing), but I think good ADC's enrich the game.
General game design terms.
It's fine for an entity to have some desirability, but how you've set up ranged AD's to be mandatory is unhealthy and, from what I can tell, one of the largest causes of problems in the game in general.
You give one of the safest groups of champions the highest damage potential in the game by quiiiiite a bit and give them the sole ability to siege towers.

That's bad.

You need to rework them. Remove crit and put more power elsewhere. Make them more competent early and mid and counterbalance by removing the horrific scaling they get from the trio of scaling tools.
Then make it so that mages can push as well. Make it so that ranged AD's aren't the only ones who can do what they do, in such a way where they can all only do the exact same thing.


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first time Vayne

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
My dream where it's 5v5 top lane and everyone is a bruiser.
Vayne would be melee and her E wouldn't push people away.

Oh wait, that's practically Jax. You and I have so much in common already. <3 haha


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Freaky Eighty

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Why does everyone say adc is boring? I really like adc


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doublelift fg

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Two possible attributions to that statement:

1) This is the weakest ADC's have been and they still have dictation over fights. The delta between Season 1 Corki and today is big - even Jinx is a shadow of yesterday's marskmen. The delta for long-time players can feel less explosive.

2) Marksmen have a weakness, and many top picks (Shyvana, Mundo, Gragas, Kassadin, Thresh) are safe, reliable and powerful. Being the one guy with an Achilles heel feels pretty bad, even if the problem is too few people have one.
how the hell people can upvote you?

we tell you that marksmen are unbalanced between them and you tell us that OP kassadin beat them

AHHAHAH


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first time Vayne

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Malevolence View Post
The game in general.
It's fine for an entity to have some desirability, but how you've set up ranged AD's to be mandatory is unhealthy and, from what I can tell, one of the largest causes of problems in the game in general.
You give one of the safest groups of champions the highest damage potential in the game by quiiiiite a bit and give them the sole ability to siege towers.

That's bad.

You need to rework them. Remove crit and put more power elsewhere. Make them more competent early and mid and counterbalance by removing the horrific scaling they get from the trio of scaling tools.
Then make it so that mages can push as well. Make it so that ranged AD's aren't the only ones who can do what they do, in such a way where they can all only do the exact same thing.
If you removed crit, sustained autoattack physical damage would do next to nothing late game. Armor damage mitigation formulas would have to be reworked. Health numbers added by items and abilities would have to be looked at. That would snowball into a huge rework...which explains why it hasn't been done yet following Riot's move against other uses of RNG.

(Not saying I like crit per se. I do not like RNG in general.)

Solutions designed to be given to just autoattackers, such as buying % AD or autoattack damage amplification in place of crit, would spill over into the already troublesome and recently revived AD caster class. We wouldn't want them out of control or underpowered again.

Ugh, it would be a balancing nightmare. I don't even know where Riot could begin.

And mages can push well. What?


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first time Vayne

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I'm going to add to this conversation that AD carries are not nearly as necessary as one might think. Try running a waveclearing aoe mage who can farm from distance in bot lane. Karthus/Ziggs/Anivia + Soraka is a really fun lane. They each bring enough damage to carry the late game, especially if your mid or top laner is an AD champion building good damage. Props if you call for an AD assassin to gib the enemy AD carry.

EDIT: They can also bully and fight in lane against the typical AD carry. Just beware of Leona and other hard engaging supports.


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TenSlashTen

Senior Member

01-30-2014

lol hashinshin please...