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Morello I'm going to give you a proposition that you can not refute.

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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

"Top lane bruisers/tanks add gameplay to the game, while ADCs remove gameplay from the game."

Fact: Shyvana and Mundo being popular and strong picks have encouraged people to find counter picks, and Trundle with Warwick have shown up as counters to them and added new picks to the competitive game.

Fact: Jinx and Lucian being popular and strong picks have NOT encouraged people to find counter picks, but rather to just play the strongest ADCs since there's no counter play.

Fact: Popular top items like Sunfire and SV have encouraged their opponents to build counter items like BotRK to beat them.

Fact: Popular ADC items like ... anything have never done anything but encourage the current strongest setup to be spammed every game.

I think that writing constant love notes to ADCs (your patch notes) have done nothing but hurt the game over and over, and now entire gameplay mechanics have been added (8 minute turret armor) just to try and deal with ADCs.


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KSHarrison

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
hashinshin:

Fact: Popular ADC items like ... anything have never done anything but encourage the current strongest setup to be spammed every game.


If the ADC role is to deal damage, then bruisers are defined more by a different role: get to the back line and kill the ADC.

The interaction here is that if bruiser's have a problem, then ADC variety will suffer. If the counter to ADC's is flat, then ADC gameplay will also seem flat. If you improve the bruiser role to have a viable mix of tanky champions, dive champions, poke champions, burst champions, and sustained DPS champions, then we will see more variety in the ADC role as well. And I mean only one of these roles, not like Mundo who is tanky, diving, poking, sustaining, or Shyvanna who is dive, tank, sustained dps, AoE dps, all in one.

When your problem is that bruisers can do everything, then the rest of the game needs champions who can do everything in order to deal with it. Pure damage champs like Kog Maw are suddenly shoved out, Vayne and Tristana aren’t good enough. You need Lucian, who lanes hard, kites, pokes, and has high dps. He does everything, just like the bruisers.

The problem is not the role of ADC, but the fact that champions are designed/balanced into a game where the state of viability is defined by how many things you can do, rather than how well you do one or two things. When this happens, you lose out on diversity. In any role, a few champions will always float to the top as the best champions. There’s nothing you can do about this; it’s part of every game. The problem is that when you only have one role available—the role of “doing everything"—then you end up with only a few viable champions. If you had 5 different roles, then you would have viable champions from each of the five roles, and diversity would appear much greater.
Quote:

Fact: Shyvana and Mundo being popular and strong picks have encouraged people to find counter picks, and Trundle with Warwick have shown up as counters to them and added new picks to the competitive game.

Fact: Jinx and Lucian being popular and strong picks have NOT encouraged people to find counter picks, but rather to just play the strongest ADCs since there's no counter play.

D-Lift specifically stated that one of the Marksman, I believe it was Tristana (or Draven), who was only viable, or sem-viable, because of its ability to lane against Lucian's dominance. Does that count as counterpick surfacing in response to an OP champ? It didn't come around, but these were his words at the start of S4.

So it is possible for Marksmen to have a similar interaction as top lane in terms of lane matchups; it’s just they have fewer champions available to them, so it’s fewer options to tap into. If we can find ONE Marksman counterpick with only around ten in the game, imagine how many would be found if we had a pool of around 40-60 to choose from, like top laners have?

The apparent disparity is a numbers problem, not a role problem.

Quote:
Fact: Popular top items like Sunfire and SV have encouraged their opponents to build counter items like BotRK to beat them.


AD carry item builds are locked in because of their role late game, which is to deal massive deeps. Nevertheless, a year ago you would not have said this, as Marksman were the ones picking up BotRK, BC, and blue builds. It was the most variety they’ve ever had, and three/four different build options for one role is impressive no matter what the lane is. That suggests it may not be an inherent problem with the Marksman role, but the current state of the game.

So it’s possible for item variety to occur, but there’s no reason to when a need for mobility means BC Miss Fortune isn’t viable, or DPS is so important (and triforce so strong), that blue build isn’t optimal. Enter Lucian, who can do all of the above. It also hurts that BotRK, an item that provided some variety to Marksman, was forced to be nerfed, because melee doesn’t have the tools to deal with a ranged champion with mobility AND a slow item. The cause of the problem is its own effect. It’s a perpetuous cycle.

In order to fix this, an infrastructural change needs to happen for the game to make meaningful progress. Morello called this the “bruiser/melee problem,” but it’s really about the whole game. Your Marksmen worries would also be allayed to a great degree if those roles were in a healthier spot.


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Ray2Saucy

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Fact: hashinshin is one of the most hated players on League.


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Sefam

Recruiter

01-30-2014

ADCs feels very impactless in solo-queue, even more so than supports thanks to the tank meta.

Also need to rush the exact same items every game.


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Gorsz

Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
hashinshin:
"Top lane bruisers/tanks add gameplay to the game, while ADCs remove gameplay from the game."

Fact: Shyvana and Mundo being popular and strong picks have encouraged people to find counter picks, and Trundle with Warwick have shown up as counters to them and added new picks to the competitive game.

Fact: Jinx and Lucian being popular and strong picks have NOT encouraged people to find counter picks, but rather to just play the strongest ADCs since there's no counter play.

Fact: Popular top items like Sunfire and SV have encouraged their opponents to build counter items like BotRK to beat them.

Fact: Popular ADC items like ... anything have never done anything but encourage the current strongest setup to be spammed every game.

I think that writing constant love notes to ADCs (your patch notes) have done nothing but hurt the game over and over, and now entire gameplay mechanics have been added (8 minute turret armor) just to try and deal with ADCs.




My god... its basically s2 all over again with dominant tanky bruiser meta destroying everyone and you're STILL *****ing about ADCS.


Holy ****


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Fad Bootwear

Member

01-30-2014

Much of this stems from the fact that adcs have extremely little kit variety when compared with top laners. Agreed.


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Farranor

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Ray2Saucy:
Fact: hashinshin is one of the most hated players on League.

He was up there, for sure, but I'm not sure he is anymore, as far as I've seen.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Ray2Saucy:
Fact: hashinshin is one of the most hated players on League.

http://twitch.tv/hashinshin


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Maulkrieg

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Ever since after S2, baby.

They 'nerfed' ADC itemization while making it cheaper, but they really, really shafted everyone else outside of AP or AD-reliant champs at the same time excluding, of course, the broken champ releases they've had.


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Brent Rambo II

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Hallowed be thy name

886995

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