Why isn't Janna allowed to have any meaningful rewards for charging Q?

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Zerothma

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

This is slightly off topic but still relevant:

Can Janna get a buff to her passive's range? The range is only 800. For reference, that's the same range as her E, or just a little longer than her heal over time AoE from her ult. Aegis has 1100 range.

It's just... really small. Like 200 more range would be great.


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Goat Clothing

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I am 2-0 with janna in silver 1 solo queue, this thread is irrelevent


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Eshild

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Supports should be able to deal damage if they build straight damage. That's all there is to it. I don't understand why someone playing Janna as an AP mage being able to waveclear is any more toxic than, say, Xerath being able to do so at 1300 range with WQ. There are tons of mages who can waveclear with little to no possibility of denial from their lane opponent (Ziggs, Lux, Morgana, Anivia and Viktor come to mind). Lux and Morgana have some utility with their shields, so how is Janna different? Janna's shields are stronger, true, but she doesn't have a root and if she uses Q to self-peel, she probably double-tapped it and sacrificed a good chunk of damage in the process.

I don't know about you guys, but my "support fantasy" does not entail being completely helpless when I'm alone. It hurt my soul to watch this clip of Shyvana and Sona chasing faker's Riven. Riven lifestole back health faster than Sona could heal herself, absorbed more damage with her E than Sona could pierce with her Q, onto of having a stun, a knockup and gapclosers. Sona's stun on her ult wasn't enough to let her get away. It just really struck me how weak supports are, especially the mage types. They have all of a mage's weaknesses without the damage.


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Clompy

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - but those champions also don't have the utility of an entire kit designed to force-multiply other characters and be a supporting force. Since the conversation is how that feels unsatisfying (and I agree it needs to be better later in the game), you can't add the safety of 2-3 defensive peels for self and teammates to that kind of power. Morgana stalemates with 1 and spellvamp...
I think you put too much emphasis on the idea of "support" abilities. More often then not, whether an ability is supportive or not is dependent on how you use it. The only times it really isn't is when you're looking at something like Soraka's heal, which can only be used to heal. I submit that a well-timed Morgana root can prevent far more damage and destruction than a Janna shield with 500 AP. Morgana needs zero AP to do that. Morgana's ultimate also slows the enemy team, allowing her own team a better opportunity to improve their position and capitalize. Support is a mindset, a playstyle. The only time it has anything to do with abilities is when you try to shoehorn someone into the "support" role.

Basically, you make supports to support. The problem is that mages can do everything a support is supposed to do (buy certain items, not kill creeps, CC baddies to protect your ADC, etc.). I should also mention they do this without having the handicap of their utility scaling off AP. As far as I can see, the only attribute left that clearly defines a "support" as "support" is the ability to heal, and I understand you aren't fan of dedicated healers.


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Feed Zac Candy

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - this should be a strong reward and isn't. I don't like variable CC due to how tightly CC duration prediction is connected to intuitive feel, and damage can get us into mage territory, but those are only two of several (and many possible) ideas. Good call generally.
You basically just said that supports aren't allowed to do damage in this post.

Mages can go support but supports can't go mage.


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Archainis

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Power-wise, I think it's fine, but I'm very hesistant to variable-length CC (the durations being standard per-skill makes timing games surrounding it intuitive). That being said, if there was ever a skill to consider it on, this is one of the better ones.
Champions like Taric, Fiddlesticks and Rammus have skills with cc that increases with rank up. Are these cases less of a problem than Janna's q charging? (notably, newer champions like Nami and Thresh don't have cc duration increase with rank)

While it's true that Janna's q charge allows for variable cc at the same rank, the amount of time spent per level (ie the amount of time between skill rank ups) seems short enough that this could produce the same problem. For example, doesn't the short duration of fiddle fears early exacerbates the loss of control later?

Would the tornado be worthy of increased cc if it had more tells on which direction it was headed while charging? At the moment, knowing that a tornado is charging doesn't help players know they have to dodge it any more than knowing that the skill is up.


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Archainis

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvertonguedDvl View Post
I must admit I'm at a bit of a loss. I understand that she has abilities designed largely to support her allies/allow them to perform better, e.g.; speed boosts/slows, knock backs/ups and of course the shield/damage boost, but even bearing that in mind is it truly irreconcilable to give her the capacity to waveclear while maintaining these abilities (even in a somewhat muted form with lower AP ratios so the AP Janna receives less potency than the support Janna from them) in return for the fact that other mages are capable of bringing far more damage to a fight and, thus, are incredibly desirable in their own ways?

...
I think one of the issues is that after casting q, Janna has something like 5 seconds (while the tornado is charging) to get out of opponent range. She doesn't even need to be in lane when the creeps are being cleared. Being able to clear waves is probably ok (see: Karma), but only having to be in range of minions/opponent champion for q cast time out of about 5 seconds isn't.


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Anbringehr

Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Power-wise, I think it's fine, but I'm very hesistant to variable-length CC (the durations being standard per-skill makes timing games surrounding it intuitive). That being said, if there was ever a skill to consider it on, this is one of the better ones.
Howling gale - creates a vortex at target location. Drawing in enemy champions with growing intensity as it continues to grow to its maximum size, the gale will then grow weaker after it reaches its peak, allowing the champions a chance to escape.


Something like that. As a magic Wind user, janna just doesnt feel like a wind user with her current gale.

Some form of hard CC to compete with leona and thresh would put janna back in the spotlight.

The more AP janna gets, the larger the vortex, and the more potent the "pull"


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Kermit666

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'd say this; if you want a character to be a support, and its job and CORE fantasy is to support, you have to make tradeoffs to make that true. If a champion is definied by helping other players on their team directly, then I think it's more important to ensure it does an awesome job of that.
Even as a very casual player mostly playing bot games, its been sad to see how mages who could support got nerfed a lot just because they are pigeon holed in that role.

I thought that only Nami & Thresh were designed from the ground up to be supports, so why does Janna have a core fantasy to only support? Also, its kinda funny that she mainly brings healing & shield for her team while 'The Storm's Fury' tornado is more of a whisper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - but those champions also don't have the utility of an entire kit designed to force-multiply other characters and be a supporting force. Since the conversation is how that feels unsatisfying (and I agree it needs to be better later in the game), you can't add the safety of 2-3 defensive peels for self and teammates to that kind of power. Morgana stalemates with 1 and spellvamp...
Annie, Orianna, Fiddlesticks, Elise, Gragas - all of these have good CC and can potentially help team far more if they get fed when a game drags on.
If traditional supports don't bring much to the table, I wonder if more will go the Annie route and start using alternate champs. If that happens, its not like all those with CC can get nerfed ratios or skills as that leaves only mages with no escape in mid (which would end up as AD caster/assassin meta probably?)


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SilvertonguedDvl

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archainis View Post
I think one of the issues is that after casting q, Janna has something like 5 seconds (while the tornado is charging) to get out of opponent range. She doesn't even need to be in lane when the creeps are being cleared. Being able to clear waves is probably ok (see: Karma), but only having to be in range of minions/opponent champion for q cast time out of about 5 seconds isn't.
She still has to be in range of the minions/where they will be upon the initial cast.

Similarly a Gragas barrel/Morgana soil can be cast ahead of time as well and still take out a wave/most of a wave, even earlier in the game than Janna can while walking away/staying out of harass range. There are other mages who can do the same. Heck, Lux and Xerath and Ziggs can pelt down a wave at a range of 1000-ish units pretty easily.

That's why this argument about Janna having waveclear being bad is so... well, bizarre to me. We've got spellcasters that have CC and other peeling effects coupled with vastly increased damage over Janna so I just... I don't understand why she can't waveclear. Other champions can do it safely, what's wrong with allowing Janna to do it since she sacrifices damage/burst potential for CC?