Why isn't Janna allowed to have any meaningful rewards for charging Q?

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Sophitia

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
When referring to power, are you talking about damage, CC, or both?

You guys say you want to make the distinction between supports and mages more clear, however you just can't do that without increasing utility.

I think people would be fine with doing no damage late-game as a support, but you've got to give them something in return. This is why there are so many threads about utility scaling.


TL;DR - have you actually TRIED giving supports more utility and lowering the damage even further? Your tone makes it sound as if you didn't. I think you should; that's what your balance team and teh PBE is for.
If they lower mage support damage any further in favor of utility then you will permanently only see mages bot. Having a decent amount of damage is still important, or Annie, Thresh and Leona would not be the "Trinity" of bot lane right now.


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UDonger

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi ramfan View Post
The main problem with the skill is that when it was good at full charge it was too good at clearing minions.
God forbid supports having waveclear.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
If they lower mage support damage any further in favor of utility then you will permanently only see mages bot. Having a decent amount of damage is still important, or Annie, Thresh and Leona would not be the "Trinity" of bot lane right now.
Thresh has the most utility packed into him out of all the supports in the game on top of being able to do damage.

Leona, for a tank, also has a lot of utility; a mini stun, a stun, and an aoe stun/slow

Annie has a stun with more uptime than other supports.


So yeah, these guys have more utility than Janna, PLUS do more damage. Theoretically, Janna should have WAY more utility/CC than these guys because of her pitiful damage, however that's not the case.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
Thresh has the most utility packed into him out of all the supports in the game on top of being able to do damage.

Leona, for a tank, also has a lot of utility; a mini stun, a stun, and an aoe stun/slow

Annie has a stun with more uptime than other supports.


So yeah, these guys have more utility than Janna, PLUS do more damage. Theoretically, Janna should have WAY more utility/CC than these guys because of her pitiful damage, however that's not the case.
I agree some mage supports might need more damage and utility to be on par, but I don't think at this point their damage should be nerfed at all. You don't need to feel like Syndra when you're playing Janna, but you should still feel like you're doing a chunk of damage if you decide to itemize with AP. It's already a HUGE investment, because it means you're probably foregoing important support items like sightstone and tankyness, which mage supports do not currently benefit from kit wise. You don't get any AP from sightstone to synergize with their kit, which is a problem that probably needs to be addressed in and of itself.


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SilvertonguedDvl

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - but those champions also don't have the utility of an entire kit designed to force-multiply other characters and be a supporting force. Since the conversation is how that feels unsatisfying (and I agree it needs to be better later in the game), you can't add the safety of 2-3 defensive peels for self and teammates to that kind of power. Morgana stalemates with 1 and spellvamp...
I must admit I'm at a bit of a loss. I understand that she has abilities designed largely to support her allies/allow them to perform better, e.g.; speed boosts/slows, knock backs/ups and of course the shield/damage boost, but even bearing that in mind is it truly irreconcilable to give her the capacity to waveclear while maintaining these abilities (even in a somewhat muted form with lower AP ratios so the AP Janna receives less potency than the support Janna from them) in return for the fact that other mages are capable of bringing far more damage to a fight and, thus, are incredibly desirable in their own ways?

If she cannot "support" her team with damage equivalent to that of Gragas or Morgana -- and even if you buffed the **** out of her Tornado she never would -- is it really so inappropriate for her to excel instead as a defensive mage option? One who, instead of blowing people up helps her team play keep-away? A sort of... de-siege mage intended to make pushing/catching her teammates harder, punishing not so much the enemy champions as forcing them into dangerous engagements (such as diving without minions)?

I admit this is probably not the route you'd want Janna to take, at any rate; I just really miss being able to have a leveled-first tornado, paired with tons of AP, having the capacity to accomplish anything even when fully charged. Even when Janna's tornado could waveclear easily she was not a common/popular midlaner due to her absence of damage, after all, and I must admit that I'm not entirely convinced that her capacity for waveclear would cause a radical imbalance to arise. After all there are plenty of other champions who can manage it nearly as easily and offer other useful elements (such as tankiness, initiations or sheer raw damage) and they are not necessarily booting out every other midlaner right now. Heck, even where Janna is concerned I could see viable counterpicks being melee champions/assassins who are so frequently troubled by mages who could better harass them with spells and autoattacks.

But I digress; sorry for rambling a bit, Morello. For whatever it's worth I'm glad you're at least responding/acknowledging the lack of satisfaction in her tornado at the moment. For the record all I'm asking is a slight AP ratio buff and only on the charge-up element of her tornado -- that way to do meaningful damage she either has to predict her opponents radically in advance or expend it purely on the minion wave, and in both cases she should need to get a fair amount of AP before it works that way.


On that note: Have you guys ever considered a siege item in the vein of the Banner of Command, but instead of simply buffing a siege minion it just gives, say, a magic-resistance shield to everyone (minions too) in range coupled with a health boost to minions? A smallish AoE sort of thing, to really encourage a sort of "charge" into the breach, as well as thwarting some of the more overwhelming elements of magical damage clears late-game.

I know it was totally off-topic but I thought I'd ask since you're checking the thread. :3



Thank you in advance for reading this whether or not you respond; I'm more interested in getting the ideas out there/asking too many questions than I am necessarily for being directly addressed. I've got to head off to bed. Hope you have a nice evening.


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Malah

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - but those champions also don't have the utility of an entire kit designed to force-multiply other characters and be a supporting force.
Completely false, actually. Morgana and Galio most optimally act as full supports past laning phase and Cho'gath may as well be in the same boat late game considering his kit equates to sitting on the ADC and throwing CC at whoever comes near.

Traditional supports are suffering due to either overtuned kill lanes or failure to actually put meaningful incentive into building them with AP. It's ironic; support power previously was greatest in its bases. You proceeded to nuke it and then assumed that would somehow make their still-pitiful ratios attractive despite the fact that CC has always been the selling point of the support. While there are niche cases I would want a full support bot lane, in most cases I'd rather just send Leona or Annie down and have five team members contributing equally instead of four.


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NUKE034

Member

01-30-2014

what about adding a "pull in" effect for a charged tornado? or having a full charged tornado stop at max range and sit there for a second or two? that would give players a choice between quick cast poke and charged up more significant disruption.


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Wargarden

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I would like support to be a function/position and less a champion "type" Janna, (and nami, lulu, orianna, lissandra, etc..) should all be balanced around the concept of being utility mages to one degree or another, and if a player decides that is the best pick for the support role should be allowed to play them there, or else elsewhere if that is what is deemed best.

similarly leona, taric should be balanced around the concept of being tanks like shen or rammus and should be balanced around that concept as well with the same choice of whether the player feels appropriate in playing them in the support role or elsewhere.

it feels like somewhere along the way the support position choice (and for those that remember early season 1, support was a nebulous concept that didn't get ironed out into adc+support role until towards the end of season 1) became the support class of champion.

just a thought


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ThaddeusMike

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'd say this; if you want a character to be a support, and its job and CORE fantasy is to support, you have to make tradeoffs to make that true. If a champion is definied by helping other players on their team directly, then I think it's more important to ensure it does an awesome job of that.

The quantity of decisions that get made is less important, in League, than the quality of the decisions. If Janna, say, can do fair job of supporting, but is completely uninteractive in mid (due to her kit being made with the idea that it will set up the pins for a friend), then it drains away the possibility of gameplay (remember sit back, wave clear, never interact AP Janna mid?) to allow a choice of where you want to play her. She gets nerfed, then support Janna gets weakened. Now you mess Janna's whole jam up.

Or, you could focus on making sure she has high-quality decisions that are impactful - a direction I think is better. If you don't want to help other people, I think you should simply not play a core support (Janna, Soraka, Lulu, Nami, Taric, Sona) and play a different character.

I think this meta conversation, though, comes from one core player desire: a way to personalize and express "style" in the way you play and choices you make. This I agree lacks and want to fix, but I think "anytime anywhere" from a role perspective cheapens in-game choices in favor or predetermined champ select choices. There's other ways to skin this that we're talking about - some things like item builds and pregame setup, though that stuff's aways off.
I think if you want a champion whose core fantasy is support you shouldn't play LoL. I'm serious. That's just the state of core supports and has been all too frequently.

Morello, I think if you want people in this game to play core supports you should make them viable. You should also figure out what you mean by "core support". I bet fewer people enjoy playing Janna now than did when she had her global speed boost. You have never succeeded in making a core support who has been balanced, had healthy gameplay patterns, and been satisfying. Put another way, I'm not sure the design team is prepared to make the tradeoffs necessary for there to be fun supports. I think you focus too much on every component and not enough on the total package. Janna getting one powerful mage-like ability isn't a problem if she starts underpowered. You aren't taking away her passive (which needs more range) or her shield or her ulti. She still has a ton of support hooks. More than Annie, Zyra, or Fid. Why does "core support" have to mean "useless without others"? Yes, waveclear is a problem. It is as solveable as problems get. There are already abilities in the game that do different amounts of damage to minons. Heck, there are abilities that interact differently with minions than with champions in all kinds of ways; you could do something like make the charge only scale champion damage. I don't think we're talking about turning Janna into someone who can 1v1 udyr, just someone who has 1 ability she can use to add damage.


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Q base nock up is now 1 second instead of .75
Charging Q no longer has a base damage bonus but the scaling ap is now .3 and the targets struck are slowed by 0% +.067 for 1 second per charge (at 500 ap it becomes a root at full charge)

Q now leans toward the direction it will go while charging, leaning more as it charges

W can now root the target at 500 ap