What we expected when Riot said "Support Utility will scale with AP"

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PubME

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
It's been a while since I've played a game because I'm busy with other things, and I'm not Diamond, either. You can take what I have to say with a grain of salt if you wish, but I watch EVERY LCS match except when SaintVicious is shoutcasting.

Please don't let him do that anymore. Please.

Moving on - Morello, I spend a lot of time on these forums defending Riot, and generally speaking I think you handle this... place ... better than anyone at Riot. However, I think you're wrong here.

In LCS right now we see Thresh, Leona, and Annie. Only. Ever. We've seen Lulu... once? Twice?

Have we even seen ANY other supports? (I'm excluding Gambit, because they do crazy stuff like Kennen and Amumu support. And they usually only do that when they know they can take a dump on another team's head. Usually works, too. Oh, the EG Urgot/Soraka game was AMAZING, too. Which has happened ONCE in THREE YEARS, I believe.)

Maybe the whole support discussion is about FotM, but the underlying factors here are that Annie's stun is atrocious, her damage is on par with Sona pre-20-nerf-cycles. This. Is. A. Problem.

Thresh/Leona are so tanky with base stats and CC capabilities that things like Sona, Lulu, Janna, and Nami don't compare.

I have no stake in the game outside of LCS because I suck at it, I play for fun, and in Non-LCS games every champion is viable, quite literally. But right now I'm a spectator of League of Legends because I'm busy with other stuff and catch a LCS game or two a night after work and on weekends until I've watched the week's games by the time the new game sets come up on VOD.

I'm tired of seeing Annie, Thresh and Leona in every single game unless a team does something crazy and picks something else.

Put that in your surveys about LCS, please. "Summoner, are you happy with the Support champion roster in LCS?" My answer would be a resounding, overwhelming, YAULP-y "No, sir, I am not!

Annie needs a timer on her stun, at which time it reverts back to two stacks on her passive. Period.
Annie needs damage reduction tweaks and a much longer cooldown on that ridiculous bear.
Annie needs an auto-attack range reduction. Zyra's was too long for bot lane, but Annie is fine? Really?

Leona is actually fine if you fix the other supports. She's the most balanced champion in the game in my opinion.

Thresh is actually pretty balanced, too. He and Leona are only as tanky as the items you build - Targon's vs. Coin to start, if you don't go with Doran's Shield first.

So, the OP is right. Take all of that above as the focal point of the discussion, and the OP has valid points. Sona is weak. Lulu is weak. Janna is weak. Zyra doesn't even exist in bot lane anymore, ONLY because of her auto-attack range reduction.

My point of view right now is from a spectator's perspective. The whole game is getting boring to watch. Spectating games in the client is more interesting than professional games right now, because the in-client games span the Tiers/Divisions and you see some crazy stuff. The pros... they go with what's not right with the game and run with it until it gets adjusted.

So... adjust it, please.

Quick Edit: Valid adjustments - Sona's damage. Janna's AD bonus on shield, her self-MS-passive on E or W, whichever spell it is - Janna needs those two adjustments. Lulu's Shield and MS Boost. Taric's manliness (make Pink Taric the default skin - fix'd). Zyra's AA range back to 575 or whatever it was pre-nerf. Blitz needs slightly higher base damage.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arduno

Senior Member

01-30-2014

yes but how many annies did you see go supp in season 2/3? not allot she needed gold to get any good and most of that gold went to wards in that era but now in season 4 that isnt a problem anymore no?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Poro Support

Senior Member

01-30-2014

It's sad how true this is unfortunately. Just take a look at the popularity stats on LolKing and you'll see how massive the difference is.

Thresh/Leona sitting at a whopping 44% popularity in picks meanwhile the aforementioned true supports Lulu/Taric/Soraka/Sona - a measly 7 to 8%? Annie is sitting at around 20% which is still higher than most traditionals.

Please stop saying "They're being played" when they aren't.

Link for reference : http://www.lolking.net/champions/


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Flytrap

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduno View Post
annie only became a problem after supports could get gold

She wasn't a problem before this change..

This is so horribly wrong.


Annie was a HUGE problem before the support changes came through. Want proof? Go watch some LCS games from last season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Poro Support View Post
It's sad how true this is unfortunately. Just take a look at the popularity stats on LolKing and you'll see how massive the difference is.

Thresh/Leona sitting at a whopping 44% popularity in picks meanwhile the aforementioned true supports Lulu/Taric/Soraka/Sona - a measly 7 to 8%? Annie is sitting at around 20% which is still higher than most traditionals.

Please stop saying "They're being played" when they aren't.

Link for reference : http://www.lolking.net/champions/

Riot doesn't make mistakes and any negative feedback they get is purely due to the hyperbolic reactions of their playerbase.


#publicrelations, #Season4, #supportproblems


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Skyhawke

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think Annie's presence warps the rest of it massively too, I agree.
I'm late to the party, but I just want to point out that it would be disappointing to only see some heavy annie/thresh/leona nerfs come out of this without taking a look at buffs and/or wide-scale changes. Otherwise we'll see only Taric/Lulu/Nami, for example.

I think a lot of the support changes have been good overall--supports get more gold, more items, and feel like they have more impact. It's really only the utility scaling thing that has seemed like a flop to me. I love the idea of utility scaling, but I think it A: Needs stronger rewards and B: True Supports have to really shine as the "utility kings" instead of utility-heavy mages. There should be a consistent scale that should look something like this:

Utility-----------------------------------Damage

support-----utility mage-----mage-----assassin

Obviously this shouldn't be a hard-line rule, but it should be a guiding principle that is clear to see. When a heavy damage mage also brings one of the most potent non-ultimate stuns, there is a problem. Similarly, if there was ever a great support who also did heavy amounts of damage, it wouldn't fit either.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sadistic Cheese

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MP44 Rommel View Post
ah here we go with the typical forum defenses.

"It's a free game! they are not obligated to do anything!" Rofl, yep, excellent logic

"It's just your opinion, go away if you don't like it" Do you know how many times I read this ****? It's like Walmart telling it's customers to **** off if they don't like a product. It's the most cancerous libtard arguement that get's nothing done

"you have to be nice" No, you really don't. Once you get out in the real world, being nice get's you nowhere. IDC if I hurt people's feelings. I want to hurt Morello's feelings. I just want a better game.
1: Actually being free or not doesn't have anything to do with the matter, and they ARE obligated to try and make sure we enjoy the game. My point is that it is not SPECIFICALLY Morello's job to take our complaints. He does this because he feels like it, not because he has to, so he's more free than someone who's job is specifically to interact with the community to just walk away. He doesn't get fired if he ignores GD, we're the only ones who get shafted.

2: I'm not saying you have to go away at all. Your opinion is perfectly valid. The problem is not WHAT you're saying, it's HOW you're saying it that GIVES the other person the freedom to ignore you completely.

3: Mmm. Being nice gets you nowhere, except it gives people a good impression of you. It makes them more receptive to you and your ideas. It's positive reinforcement: We're nice to Morello, in turn he (hopefully) strives to be nice to us. If you don't care about his feelings when he's taking time out of his own time, WILLINGLY subjecting himself to abuse over decisions he's made and decisions that he's not even had any hand in, and he's NOT EVEN GETTING PAID FOR THIS, well...I just can't help you.

The guy's reaching out on his own time and his own dime and he gets nothing but hate and a free pass to basically never say anything to us again, and your response is to get MORE pissed? How does that get you the game you want? That gets you nothing but you standing there yelling and screaming at him to come back and listen to your supposedly righteous fury while he walks away because frankly, the worst you can do is uninstall and never play again. One person out of millions. That means nothing, less than nothing.

You being pissed and hurting his feelings gives him a free excuse to walk away.

You uninstalling and quitting the game means he never has to hear from you again.

Remind me what REAL power your outrage has, or try just being aware that you're talking to another human being, not the evil radioactive mutated love-spawn of Satan and Dracula or something.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

øLordSeth

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Downvoting nerfmaster sucktown


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

alfavhunter

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Let look at the 3 major stats if this game

Damage
Utility
Tankiness

True supports having the most utility would be at a 9-10
Utility mages are at about 7-8
True support damage is at about a 3
Utility Mage I at 7-8
True support and utility Mage are at about 3 on tankiness

True support stat score is about 16
Utility Mage stat score is about 18-19

The problem isn't just utility with supports thier damage was nerfed so hard that they can't really contribute so a kill at all other than thier ability to keep thier allies alive

While tank supports like thresh and Leona (and a lesser extent taric)
Have the stats of 7/7/7 being generally tanky with good utility and good damage (score of 21) sure they don't do damage in par with damage dealers but they have burst, look at a level 3 Leona damage combo combined with her passive, then look at what a full charged tornado level 3 Janna can do with Q aw and 2 AA with E benefit, it's almost half of Leona damage

Look at thresh his flail passive hurts combined with flail itself and Hook damage and he does more damage than Janna, and is tankier, and arguably has a similar level of utility (though of a different kind)

And though taric is lacking in hard CC compared to Leona and thresh he brings sustain and arguably more damage with proper passive use as well as gaining damage for being more tanky (while the other 2 do not get extra damage from being tanky

Annie however throws true supports out if bot because of how squishy they are, Annie has 6 in utility for the fat that she can have an aoe stun and timbers can do other things than just damage (split push blok skill shots tank dragon / baren, act as a plesibo ward, check brush, exc) and her damage is a 9 (due to being all burst) while her tankiness (thanks to E) is at about 4-5 this outs Annie at about 20


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The MechE

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Okay, so I've been looking at lolking, and I'm just super confused.


Why are you guys saying traditional supports aren't viable? They have great win rates.

Sona 53%

Janna 52%

Leona 52%

Nami 50%

Thresh 51%

Seriously, why are traditional supports in a bad spot? Win rate wise, they look perfectly fine. Is it because of satisfaction issues?

Btw,

Annie 48%


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PubME

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanical Heart View Post
Okay, so I've been looking at lolking, and I'm just super confused.


Why are you guys saying traditional supports aren't viable? They have great win rates.

Sona 53%

Janna 52%

Leona 52%

Nami 50%

Thresh 51%

Seriously, why are traditional supports in a bad spot? Win rate wise, they look perfectly fine. Is it because of satisfaction issues?

Btw,

Annie 48%
Scroll up. My argument has nothing to do with win rates or overall power in Solo Queue or Normals.

My argument has everything to do with LCS being boring because the pros are the best at abusing what Riot hasn't fixed yet.