What we expected when Riot said "Support Utility will scale with AP"

First Riot Post
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Aultaro

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think Annie's presence warps the rest of it massively too, I agree.
While I agree that changes need to be made to lessen support Annie's power, I must insisted that you don't take the zyra route on her. Annie was my first champion ever and I would feel heartbroken if I started getting flamed*no pun intented* for taking her Mid like she was originally inteded for. I play Annie as a burst mage. Even as a support, I itemized for AP, knowing that I could be as strong if not stronger than an underfed midlaner.

TLDR Make changes to annie without removing her from mid lane.


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RamsaySnow

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Honestly it would be almost impossible to nerf annie out of support without making her useless everywhere else too. Unfortunately the only way to really fix the problem and keep her viable at all would be a significant rework.

Thresh is just broken mechanically. He's a tank, and he has a lot of cc, and respectable damage, AND hes ranged so that poke he has is guaranteed if you're in range, oh and he gets free AP and armor. His design is a lot like Yasuo's where they gave him absolutely everything he needed to do everything he wants to do, which makes counterplay quite difficult if the player knows what they're doing. As much as I love Elise, the same problem applies to her. Lucian deserves the critique he's been getting because hes mobile and he has survivability and he has chase and he has burst and he has long range damage from his Q and ult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Not sure how many more analogies you need to get the point but I guess I can try to explain it yet again.

In a strategy game vision and knowledge are vital to know. Players who understand this will commit a large portion of their resources to both attaining this for themselves and limiting it for their opponents. In the past you could do this as a support. If you understood vision but others didn't you could carry your team, dominate vision and win games. Now no matter how much you understand vision control, no matter how good you are when it comes to knowing ward placements hiding them to get vision while protecting them from common vision clears it doesn't matter anymore because you can't control it anymore. You are restricted by the game in what you can do. If riot placed a restraint that said champions cannot walk away from enemies for X seconds after attacking them it would destroy kiting roles and llayers who are damn good at it would suddenly finding their skills being made irrelevant because of game restraints. The warding restraints are the exact same thing. If you want to say " no vision is a team game" yeah so is peeling for the adc but that doesn't always happen in solo Q and at times they have to depend on their own skills to kite. At least they are still allowed to sadly supports are not.
This is actually quite annoying. There have been games where i have literally begged my teammates to ward and they respond with "stfu". I can only drop so many wards and when I jungle or support I try to drop wards to help my teammates instead of helping myself because I figure giving vision to them will help the game but its incredibly frustrating when you jungle gets invaded because your top lane won't ward tribrush or help defend your jungle, or your support absolutely refuses to place any of the 6 wards in his inventory, or your mid refuses to ward when they're getting camped.

You used to be able to just bite the bullet and ward for them if your teammates were idiots who didn't understand the value of vision, but now you pretty much can't. At higher levels of play it doesn't matter as much as most people know to ward and watch the map, but it's incredibly frustrating while you're climbing lower elos how many stupid mistakes could have been avoided if they had just warded or helped you to ward. Can't count on two hands how many games I've played as an adc and the only wards out at bot lane were mine, or how many times I drop wards for lanes when I'm jungling and they refuse to use theirs.


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Not sure how many more analogies you need to get the point but I guess I can try to explain it yet again.

In a strategy game vision and knowledge are vital to know. Players who understand this will commit a large portion of their resources to both attaining this for themselves and limiting it for their opponents. In the past you could do this as a support. If you understood vision but others didn't you could carry your team, dominate vision and win games. Now no matter how much you understand vision control, no matter how good you are when it comes to knowing ward placements hiding them to get vision while protecting them from common vision clears it doesn't matter anymore because you can't control it anymore. You are restricted by the game in what you can do. If riot placed a restraint that said champions cannot walk away from enemies for X seconds after attacking them it would destroy kiting roles and llayers who are damn good at it would suddenly finding their skills being made irrelevant because of game restraints. The warding restraints are the exact same thing. If you want to say " no vision is a team game" yeah so is peeling for the adc but that doesn't always happen in solo Q and at times they have to depend on their own skills to kite. At least they are still allowed to sadly supports are not.

You have yet to explain how this some how can't (and shouldn't) be achieved through team effort and how only one person (The Support) should be the sole deciding factor in whether you have vision or not.

Like some how, because you can't ward as much as possible, all the sudden no one can ward or should. Like some how, because you aren't the sole reason why your team has vision, it's not important that the rest of your team does.

This is not akin to making Ashe unable to move or peeling for her, because Only Ashe can Kite her attackers and not everyone can peel for a carry, but everyone sure can ward.

This is a team based game, where you work as a team. Individual skill (Kiting/Peel) are important, but no one in the history of League has won a 1v5 far as I am aware (without some kind of handicap). If Solo Q can't learn to ward, then those Solo Q players will eventually begin to lose to players who do, because that's how meta works, because Vision is important and it doesn't (and shouldn't) matter who's doing it.


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RamsaySnow

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
You have yet to explain how this some how can't (and shouldn't) be achieved through team effort and how only one person (The Support) should be the sole deciding factor in whether you have vision or not.

Like some how, because you can't ward as much as possible, all the sudden no one can ward or should. Like some how, because you aren't the sole reason why your team has vision, it's not important that the rest of your team does.

This is not akin to making Ashe unable to move or peeling for her, because Only Ashe can Kite her attackers and not everyone can peel for a carry, but everyone sure can ward.

This is a team based game, where you work as a team. Individual skill (Kiting/Peel) are important, but no one in the history of League has won a 1v5 far as I am aware (without some kind of handicap). If Solo Q can't learn to ward, then those Solo Q players will eventually begin to lose to players who do, because that's how meta works, because Vision is important and it doesn't (and shouldn't) matter who's doing it.
His point isn't that everyone shouldn't ward or that not everyone can ward, his point is that when you have idiotic teammates who don't value vision and refuse to ward, you can't make up for their stupidity yourself anymore. You can only place 3 wards plus a pink which is enough for your lane and maybe one side of another lane, but not enough to help other areas or for bush control or other things that you may actually need to ward for yourself. His point is that the lower elos are extremely painful to climb because you have this limit on how much vision you can actually have because you're limited to how many wards you can place plus the one or two the rest of your team combined decide to place (If they even decide to place those)

Their stupid ideas about vision can severely affect how well you are able to play and can prevent you from carrying simply because you have no choice but to facecheck sometimes or your team keeps facechecking and feeding and you can't just say "screw it, i'll ward everything to keep these idiots from getting ganked"


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Cencene

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think Annie's presence warps the rest of it massively too, I agree.
So, I realize Annie may be a "Problem" when put in the support lane, but you have to realize, if you nerf her too hard, the people that play her like she is meant to be, IN MID LANE, like myself, will be pretty upset... I've bought quite a few of Annie's skins so I may strike fear in my enemy mid laners with fashion, but if you out-right nerf her for the sake that "She is a problem as a support" Is kind of bull****, excuse my French. It's just not fair to have a champion receive a hard nerf because people are exploiting it in another lane.


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RamsaySnow

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cencene View Post
So, I realize Annie may be a "Problem" when put in the support lane, but you have to realize, if you nerf her too hard, the people that play her like she is meant to be, IN MID LANE, like myself, will be pretty upset... I've bought quite a few of Annie's skins so I may strike fear in my enemy mid laners with fashion, but if you out-right nerf her for the sake that "She is a problem as a support" Is kind of bull****, excuse my French. It's just not fair to have a champion receive a hard nerf because people are exploiting it in another lane.
If she persists as is, she's gonna need a rework. Nerfs won't cut it to take out the toxicity without nerfing her already iffy mid lane role to the ground


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Cencene

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamsaySnow View Post
If she persists as is, she's gonna need a rework. Nerfs won't cut it to take out the toxicity
This is true, however, they wont rework her so soon after giving her a somewhat rework before. As well as there is already way to many badly needed champion reworks lined up. I DO agree with what you say, it just probably wont happen within this year, if even next year, assuming that's what they do.


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oceaser12

Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
i personally see leona and thresh every game, if one of them are banned i u will see an annie or a odd ball sona or nami


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamsaySnow View Post
His point isn't that everyone shouldn't ward or that not everyone can ward, his point is that when you have idiotic teammates who don't value vision and refuse to ward, you can't make up for their stupidity yourself anymore. You can only place 3 wards plus a pink which is enough for your lane and maybe one side of another lane, but not enough to help other areas or for bush control or other things that you may actually need to ward for yourself. His point is that the lower elos are extremely painful to climb because you have this limit on how much vision you can actually have because you're limited to how many wards you can place plus the one or two the rest of your team combined decide to place (If they even decide to place those)
And my point is this is due to how much we support were forced to pamper them for 3 years.

Higher Elos don't have a problem because they know, they know that Vision is important and that it needs to be done, regardless of how. The change for them was easy and painless for the most part.

What you and him are complaining about isn't the fact that you can't ward, it's that others don't understand the importance of vision and refuse to ward because they were breed for years to tell you to go pound sand do it yourself.

Now you can't, because people are limited to how much they can ward. Smart players picked up on that and began buying wards and Trinkets, these players apparently didn't get the memo. I'm fine with this. Why? Because vision is a Team effort and if my team wants to have no Vision, then I'll focus on giving as much as I can and focus on other things. Eventually, this train of thought will be breed out of League players and they will start buying wards, like they should have from the beginning (and did).

All he's doing is moaning about how the developers finally took a hard stance on an rampant abuse case and that some people still don't get it.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
You have yet to explain how this some how can't (and shouldn't) be achieved through team effort and how only one person (The Support) should be the sole deciding factor in whether you have vision or not.

Like some how, because you can't ward as much as possible, all the sudden no one can ward or should. Like some how, because you aren't the sole reason why your team has vision, it's not important that the rest of your team does.

This is not akin to making Ashe unable to move or peeling for her, because Only Ashe can Kite her attackers and not everyone can peel for a carry, but everyone sure can ward.

This is a team based game, where you work as a team. Individual skill (Kiting/Peel) are important, but no one in the history of League has won a 1v5 far as I am aware (without some kind of handicap). If Solo Q can't learn to ward, then those Solo Q players will eventually begin to lose to players who do, because that's how meta works, because Vision is important and it doesn't (and shouldn't) matter who's doing it.



You are misunderstanding what I am saying. You are equating "the support CAN'T" with meaning "the support SHOULD." Never once in any of my reaponses will you find a place where I said supports SHOULD be the only ones warding. What you will find is where I said "IF A PLAYER understands the importance of vision control they no longer have the ability to dominate it." This is in fact restricting player skill but you are to caught up in this fake liberation of supports that doesn't exist to see it.