What we expected when Riot said "Support Utility will scale with AP"

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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
Also, the problem with utility scaling is not only one of balance. It's also one of feel. Most of the utility scaling effects they chose read very poorly; effects like Soraka Q, Nami E, and Janna W don't feel like they do anything at all. If you're going to make people happy with utility scaling, the effects need to feel worth buying AP for.
Feel and Do are two different things.

I agree, support effects need to be more evident and pronounced so they feel like they are there, but to say a 85*3 damage buff with a 35% slow attached and 40% slow with an MS passive don't do anything is insane, especially when that's just bases.

Soraka is broken (Ask Morello why) and needs a rework, so I don't even consider her part of the support discussion overall right now.


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mertatron

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Your view of this situation is distorted, much like mine was, because you seem to constantly be playing with the same ppl. These are ppl u can coach, educate and call out for things like warding. This means the vision changes are irrelevant to you. In solo Q however the story is very different. You can't coach, educate or call our ppl like you can with friends without getting backlash. This means often even if you understand the importance of vision and want to properly control it you CAN'T not because of any fault of your own but because game mechanics say no. I can't even begin to explain how stupid it is that player skill is literally inhibited by an in game mechanic. It would be like the NFL telling QBs "you can only throw X number of passes" and the only way to get around it would be to have wide recievers or running bacls throw the ball. Its a rather stupid skill limiting mechanic that frankly needs to go.
u got that is sports too in a way by rules.

rugby .. u always need to throw backward

soccer .. u've got the "hors jeux" .. where u can't give the ball to an ally in certain zones of the field if there's no enemy team on that part

there are rules in every game that can feel as if you're being gutted.

the difference is .. we are used of these rules.


the warding rule is new in LoL and people still have a hard time accepting it. but because we are old players ... new players won't have the same issue coz they learned those rules right away.

to me ... since there are new rules .. I try to accept them and play with them and learn to deal with it and take advantage of it .. coz the enemy team will also be limited in wards. I don't put my energy to be angry at it and say it was better in the old days. I try to evolve and that's it.


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CnB84

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Satisfaction on "buffs" is quite difficult overall. I think Nami does better than most supports here due to being more modern in terms of VFX and feedback.
I don't think she's actually all that special. Nothing about her stands out.


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Your view of this situation is distorted, much like mine was, because you seem to constantly be playing with the same ppl.
A large majority of my games are Solo Q.

Quote:
These are ppl u can coach, educate and call out for things like warding. This means the vision changes are irrelevant to you. In solo Q however the story is very different.
Actually, it's not, here's why.

As I explained, Vision is a Team goal, not one person. The only reason it ever became the support's sole job in the first place was due to how Gold and efficiency works in League. As players became more and more adept to the system, they began to force more and more responsibilities to the support in lieu of taking it on themselves.

Before Season 2, warding was done by just about everyone, even ADCs. After the First major Tounry though, ADC/Support bot became a thing and so did support warding.

Since then players have abused this fact, making one player suffer so they could succeed, which while right from a gameplay perspective, is wrong for game health.

Solo Q players just refuse to understand this, that they are responsible for their team's vision as much as anyone else, like they always were, Now though they don't have someone to shove the responsibility on to.


Quote:
Its a rather stupid skill limiting mechanic that frankly needs to go.
Limiting how? Please, go on, because I don't see in anyway how this someone limits skill in anyway. You lost the ability to throw down as many wards as you wished, now you have to think about how many you put down and your team actually has to participate. If anything it's increased the skill cap, as players now have to actively communicate where they will place wards and move together to do it.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by mertatron View Post
u got that is sports too in a way by rules.

rugby .. u always need to throw backward

soccer .. u've got the "hors jeux" .. where u can't give the ball to an ally in certain zones of the field if there's no enemy team on that part

there are rules in every game that can feel as if you're being gutted.

the difference is .. we are used of these rules.


the warding rule is new in LoL and people still have a hard time accepting it. but because we are old players ... new players won't have the same issue coz they learned those rules right away.

to me ... since there are new rules .. I try to accept them and play with them and learn to deal with it and take advantage of it .. coz the enemy team will also be limited in wards. I don't put my energy to be angry at it and say it was better in the old days. I try to evolve and that's it.


Rugby does it to differentiate themselves from football, because frankly that sport is a more physical football at its core. Soccer can't comment on as I know nothing about it.

As for evolution of the rules, rules should evolve to promote, encourage and challenge player skill. Its why the forward pass went from being illegal to a trick play to a mainstay of professional football as QBs skill has increased.

Likewise wards went from blanket warding, to specific counter warding, to blanketing the map with pinks, to the dark ages with near zero vision we have now. While never really being truly balanced allowing players to attain knowledge of the enemy team, and conversly enabling enemies to fight your ability to attain said knowledge, is a vital part of any strategy game. Right now both the ability to gain knowledge and limit your opponents ability isn't something that is mainly controlled by a player but instead by the game. Did changes need to happen? Sure. Where the correct changes to strip players of the ability to actually fight over and dominate vision? Absolutely not.


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Ventose

Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think Annie's presence warps the rest of it massively too, I agree.
well said, how about Elise


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PsychoB0b

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Hey morello...bronzie popping on to just give a few of my opinions based on games I've been watching, and forum stuff I've read. (Been in an odd slump where I'm only playing dominion and twisted treeline.)

A few of the reason' I think Annie, Leona and Thresh feel so strong right now in comparison to other champs is from just how strong thier cc can be in comparison to other supports...and the rather questionable utility ratios that...while they sound good in theory, leave alot of the supports in a lesser spot than they were at the end of the season due to how much ap is needed to get back up to their base. And most supports....build support items. The utility and damage ratios are far too low to really benefit much from stacking Ap when you could get an item like Shurelias or Locket and offer up a heck of a lot more, while the loss from not building ap is minimal.

Annie meanwhile, has a reliable aoe stun limited only by her on cd's...high ratios and bases, decent survivability, and can do really well without building any support items.

Thresh has a lot of tools at his disposal to get his carry ahead, and he's great at locking down enemy champions with his kit to guarentee kills.

Leona...has just mountains of cc and survivability.

Supports in general have a few problems that feel like they hold them back however. Heals are kept weak (I actually agree with you on this, heals without counterplay or interaction are annoying at best.), their dmg is kept weak (Questionable...), they have lower cc than most mages (Sona has a 1.5 second aoe stun on her ult and it's viewed as a huge mistake, and it's pretty much her only cc.). They don't really feel like they have a spot they really shine at, and that's what worries me to be honest. Their dmg isn't high...their cc isn't too strong. They can't duel anyone (With the exception of Thresh) their generally pretty squishy, they don't scale too well either. They do offer decent utility...but even then, utility mages do a better job at that, while scaling better (Love me the new karma btw).So...I'm kinda curious what your answer to these thoughts are.

Keep in mind, I'm a low level player, so my thoughts might be misaimed...or flat out wrong at points, but I like to think I have a decent grasp on this game.


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ForumPostingAcco

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think Annie's presence warps the rest of it massively too, I agree.
If you nerf Annie, you have to do something about Yasuo. Maybe release a video showing people playing him top-lane? In low ELO solo queue (bronze/silver) Annie support is pretty much your only option to have magic damage on your team if you have a tank and/or AD jungler, tank and/or AD top, and an AD mid. If everyone on the enemy team builds thornmail+randuins and you don't have an Annie, not even Yasuo's armor shred will save you.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Limiting how? Please, go on, because I don't see in anyway how this someone limits skill in anyway. You lost the ability to throw down as many wards as you wished, now you have to think about how many you put down and your team actually has to participate. If anything it's increased the skill cap, as players now have to actively communicate where they will place wards and move together to do it.

Not sure how many more analogies you need to get the point but I guess I can try to explain it yet again.

In a strategy game vision and knowledge are vital to know. Players who understand this will commit a large portion of their resources to both attaining this for themselves and limiting it for their opponents. In the past you could do this as a support. If you understood vision but others didn't you could carry your team, dominate vision and win games. Now no matter how much you understand vision control, no matter how good you are when it comes to knowing ward placements hiding them to get vision while protecting them from common vision clears it doesn't matter anymore because you can't control it anymore. You are restricted by the game in what you can do. If riot placed a restraint that said champions cannot walk away from enemies for X seconds after attacking them it would destroy kiting roles and llayers who are damn good at it would suddenly finding their skills being made irrelevant because of game restraints. The warding restraints are the exact same thing. If you want to say " no vision is a team game" yeah so is peeling for the adc but that doesn't always happen in solo Q and at times they have to depend on their own skills to kite. At least they are still allowed to sadly supports are not.


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Sefam

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think Annie's presence warps the rest of it massively too, I agree.
I think Doran's Shield is a huge problem too.

It doesn't belong on bot lane.