What we expected when Riot said "Support Utility will scale with AP"

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SlumlordThanatos

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
In GD's defense...you're wrong.

Yes, they have seen play. But how many of them have seen consistent play, and how many of them had the same success as the current holy trinity of Leona/Thresh/Annie supports?

None of them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sefam

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
I jumped from Silver 4, back all the way to 1 in 3 days (went back to 2) playing traditional supports.

I really don't see how anyone can argue that supports were in a better position before than they are now. They had very little gold, were ward mules and relied on extremely over-tuned kits to get anything done, consequently they were nerfed whenever they got "too good."
I would say that supports are in a "better" position. However some of their abilities early game were nerfed to compensate for the fact that they get more gold now.

The problem is that some of these champions were good early game, and excelled in conditions with no gold. Now that they have gold, tanky heroes and mages with stuns do better than them because they transition out of early game better or provide more burst early game.

Items like Doran's Shield really don't help either. It's hard as hell to poke out a Thresh with Doran's.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
You're right that Annie forces squishy supports out.



I think you'll find this assessment is out of date. Leona feels all but impervious to poke on live today -- if you play Leona against Lulu and let Lulu land every Q, Lulu will run out of mana long before you run out of health. I really like playing poke supports but I can't make any of them work as well as just playing Leona or Thresh myself.

Certainly the pro scene commonly bans Annie out, and nobody responds to a Leona pick by taking something to poke her with. The go to pick if you can't have Annie or Thresh tends to be Alistar.
Leona isn't nearly as much as a problem as people make her out to be. Her base stats were not affected in the slightest with the reworks (far as I remember anyway). The only change to her wasn't her kit, but the masteries and those same masteries (along with Dorans) are the reason why Top went to Resourceless champions who historically had bad sustain.

Fix the Masteries, Fix Dorans, Leona is back to what she used to be. Her shield isn't nearly as good as it was without sufficient Armor and MR.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beldori

Senior Member

01-30-2014

My take on the traditional supports is Nami is strong since she didn't get much in the way of damage nerfs like the rest but shes very reliant on player skill to land her Q and use of her E otherwise her heal is stronger now and her passive got a buff, Taric is strongish but a one trick pony still, Janna seems very weak for the most part, she seems to be only useful for disengage and a shield right now.

Lulu seems to be okayish, damage is meh same with her utility compared to other supports, she really isn't a safe pick so no point to play her unless your a Lulu fan or there is a counter that Lulu is needed for. Sona is a safe pick, nothing more nothing less, her damage is meh her utility is meh but shes easy to use has a heal and a AOE stun, I personally swapped from Sona to Nami for better power while keeping good utility since Sona got a damage nerf and Nami got a utility buff


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sefam View Post
I would say that supports are in a "better" position. However some of their abilities early game were nerfed to compensate for the fact that they get more gold now.

The problem is that some of these champions were good early game, and excelled in conditions with no gold. Now that they have gold, tanky heroes and mages with stuns do better than them because they transition out of early game better or provide more burst early game.

Items like Doran's Shield really don't help either. It's hard as hell to poke out a Thresh with Doran's.

The nerf to their damage was a small price to pay, especially since Sona was really the only one who's relied on serious harass. Lulu, Nami and Taric all have other effective ways to create opportunities for ganks and harass. Janna has her own problems as well as Soraka (both in my opinion have broken kits.)

And as I stated earlier, Dorans and the Masteries are the problem not Thresh and Leona. Before the changes Thresh and Leona were easily harassed and they had to actively control their lane to achieve anything substantial, else their carry was out harassed and zoned.

As I have hammered in by now, Annie is the only real problem we are facing and the nerfs I linked to before would solve alot of her success bottom.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Soiyeruda

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
Honestly speaking, I only ever play Janna (if I just don't feel like thinking), Lulu, and Nami if Thresh isn't open purely because I don't really like playing Leona and Annie much.

I know they probably aren't that far off but when you're ignoring what should be obvious problems like charging Janna's Q being a false choice, and then nerfing strange non-issues like Sona's E, it's difficult to take support balance seriously.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Such League Wow

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soiyeruda View Post
Honestly speaking, I only ever play Janna, Lulu, and Nami if Thresh isn't open purely because I don't really like playing Leona and Annie much.

I know they probably aren't that far off but when you're ignoring what should be obvious problems like charging Janna's Q being a false choice, and then nerfing strange non-issues like Sona's E, it's difficult to take support balance seriously.
Yeah what the actual fck is going on with nerfing Sona's E? That is the most random nerf in Riot history.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sefam

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
The nerf to their damage was a small price to pay, especially since Sona was really the only one who's relied on serious harass. Lulu, Nami and Taric all have other effective ways to create opportunities for ganks and harass. Janna has her own problems as well as Soraka (both in my opinion have broken kits.)

And as I stated earlier, Dorans and the Masteries are the problem not Thresh and Leona. Before the changes Thresh and Leona were easily harassed and they had to actively control their lane to achieve anything substantial, else their carry was out harassed and zoned.

As I have hammered in by now, Annie is the only real problem we are facing and the nerfs I linked to before would solve alot of her success bottom.
It's not just nerfs to damage, some of them have had a slight nerf to their utility as well. You don't recover that utility until you reach 50-100 AP depending on the skill.

Those nerfs hurt a lot because of Doran's Shield and Masteries. Not only do you hit less because of the nerfs, you also hit less because of Doran's, and also hit even less because of Masteries. And then you do not have the mana pool to sustain enough harass/poke on those champions.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
Leona isn't nearly as much as a problem as people make her out to be. Her base stats were not affected in the slightest with the reworks (far as I remember anyway). The only change to her wasn't her kit, but the masteries and those same masteries (along with Dorans) are the reason why Top went to Resourceless champions who historically had bad sustain.

Fix the Masteries, Fix Dorans, Leona is back to what she used to be. Her shield isn't nearly as good as it was without sufficient Armor and MR.
Leona is a huge balance problem. I don't remember the last time a champion stayed above 40% pick rate and 52% win rate for this long. Leona is so good right now that I expect to win lane against Janna, which used to be a nightmare matchup.

I agree that the source of the problem is Doran's Shield and the defensive masteries, which we see are making poke damage quite ineffective in every lane. You have to be careful about fixing this though, because who knows what other interactions you'll mess up by doing that. In particular, I'm pretty sure the defensive masteries are Riot's latest plan for how to make top lane less of a toxic waste dump.

It may be that it's a better idea to balance the champions around the masteries, rather than the other way around.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tang Bohu

Recruiter

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That might be true. I just don't want the support "religious argument" to cloud the conversation about support scaling needing more work.

We agree there generally (and some of this is in the support items, too - Xyph and friends are plowing on that right now).

EDIT: Evident with the reactionary downvotes in this thread. Realllllly? You can't even not downvote a post I agree they need love?
Damn right morello, upvotes are for the civilized folks.


on a sidenote, a lot of people I'm seeing recently don't build locket either... makes me sad.