What we expected when Riot said "Support Utility will scale with AP"

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

fieryfate

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
http://loldb.gameguyz.com/statistics/0/0/2/2/0/7

Popularity in ranked over the past week across all servers:

1. Thresh 10.33%
2. Leona 10.09%
11. Blitzcrank 4.98% (could include some top-lane Blitz, but unlikely to be significant)
13. Annie 4.83% (not sure if bans are factored in; seems weird that Annie is less popular than Blitzcrank)
...
...
43. Sona 2.15%
51. Taric 2.01%
59. Nami 1.59%
61. Lulu 1.56%
65. Janna 1.38%
78. Soraka 1.07%
100. Nunu 0.56%
114. Zilean 0.30%


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Morello could you clarify exactly what Riots definition or vision of support champions actually is? I ask because frankly I have no clue. In previous seasons it seemed clear, they where champs with high utility, and strong base values in exchange for not getting to scale into the late. It was a position of sacrifice in order to protect and ensure your adc got to their hyperscaling late game status. That was clear and seemed to work well.

Not it really doesn't seem clear at all. Are they super tanks ala Leona/Thresh or AP nukers with small amounts of CC ala Annie/Leblanc. Is there a place for champs like Sona/Soraka who are severly lacking right now. Are fringed champs like Janna/Lulu/Karma going to see any changes to help them compete with the laning potential of Thresh/Leona/Annie without having to severly out play them to a high degree.

There are really just a lot of questions I have about supporting right now, and as a support main since I started in S2 I really just find myself confused whenever I try to think about what exactly you guys are invisioning for supports in S4. Sorry if it seems rather negative in this response I'm just really finding myself dissatisfied with the supporting role as it stands in S4 now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Maulkrieg

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
Why the down-votes?

I know traditional supports aren't in the greatest spot, but they're still 'okay' picks. No worse than Morg to Ori or anything similar, for certain.

Things could be a lot worse for such a large, botched balance factor.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Postal Miku

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Satisfaction on "buffs" is quite difficult overall. I think Nami does better than most supports here due to being more modern in terms of VFX and feedback.
OH OH!
Morello Kun!

Mind explaining what the point was to the random Sona nerfs put on PBE and then pulled?
I assumed you wanted to give her W passive a ratio, but that makes it worse TBH since you would repeat the same mistake as preseason changes (Nerf too much of something for some utility ratio)

I REALLY hope you have some special goodies for us soon, maybe we can play supports as supports and not be reported for trollpicking when Leona/Thresh/Annie were open

Don't worry, I wont bite your head off, I'm actually happy someone finally responded on the subject and realizes it exists


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Croanin

Senior Member

01-29-2014

A part of the issue also is supports still don't accumulate that much gold especially after the recent gold income adjustments. We still spend a good chunk of income on wards, and unless we snowball the lane hard you wont see many items on a support still.

Tanks like Leona and Thresh are thriving off the changes the most still however, the best gold item in the game is the Amulet which gives no support scaling to supports. The CDR and active help all but I think the ones with more then one CC to throw per fight get the most out of it, and most of all those that can engage. After which tanks can start bulking up with tank items. A support still shouldn't be focus'd tank or not so it gives them a bit more of a cushion.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Perfect Insanity

Senior Member

01-29-2014

The point isn't just how much play supports may or may not be getting, it's how underwhelming many supports feel in comparison to others who's intial designated role was not support (Annie/Leona). Soraka is not seen ever, only in very rare ocassions, same with sona who at one point was queen of the bot lane. Alistar is also underwhelming to play because almost every champion played has either a method to escape or several.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

mertatron

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
You're right that people are overdramatizing the current situation with supports. I actually think that support itemization is the more pressing concern than support champion balance; I would argue that a big reason why Leona and Thresh are so dominant is that they have access to superior itemization compared to the squishy supports. It is possible this problem always existed, but was masked by the whole "supports don't buy items" thing.

Concretely:
1. Doran's Shield works great for laners and supports, while Doran's Ring has tons of wasted value on a support.
2. Frost Queen's Claim is really horrible.
3. The best support items have zero AP but are pretty solid for tanks.
4. Buying a single mage item (e.g. Deathfire Grasp) has less impact than buying a single tank item (e.g. Randuin's Omen); the mage itemization is built around the idea that you'll have force multipliers like Rabadon's, DFG, and Void Staff but supports can't realistically get a full mage build.
thing is .. leona scales of armor/mr ... and her damage is nice on squishy ... so for every bit of armor/mr she buys, one of her spell gets stronger and overall leona gets tankier
that's how itemisation works for her

same for taric, he builds mostly off armor and HP now ... so itemiseing like a tank makes him more powerfull.

supports don't build AP .. ever .. they build mostly HP, defense, MS and CDR (maybe mana or mana regen) and none of their spells show that.
plus .. their CC got down so they could have some scaling with AP ... pb is they don't build AP .. or just a little ... so overall they can itemise better than last season .. but their utility got down.

to me ... to make supports better would be to make some of their spells scale with other stats. like sona's aura scale a bit with bonus armor and mr .. soraka's armor boost scale with armor while her heal still scale with AP ... stuff like that.


they begin to do it .. more and more u see lucian's lt scaling with AS .. same for yasuo .. his shield comes back with MS and his Q CDR with AS.
so they can do other types of scaling. why an't they do it on supports .. so all those defensive items would be even better on them


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Morello could you clarify exactly what Riots definition or vision of support champions actually is?
The current working definition is that supports are champions that have higher utility in exchange for lower damage. They're trying to move from "supports buy no items" to "supports buy items to increase their utility more than their damage".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Are fringed champs like Janna/Lulu/Karma going to see any changes to help them compete with the laning potential of Thresh/Leona/Annie without having to severly out play them to a high degree.
Morello won't promise anything, but there is a 0.01% chance that the state of the bot lane is stable today. Annie/Leona/Thresh is just oppressively dominating in the competitive scene and many players are unhappy about the state of support.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Satisfaction on "buffs" is quite difficult overall. I think Nami does better than most supports here due to being more modern in terms of VFX and feedback.
I just want to say to you Morello, that I personally love these changes you made.

I've been supporting for over 3 years now, beginning all the way back to Karma and Maokai and these changes have completely changed how I can affect my games.

While there is a ton of negativity surrounding your support rework, the positives that have risen out of these new changes out weight the negatives completely (though many would disagree). Support Champions need some tuning overall, but the amount needed I feel isn't that much, simply the community as a whole doesn't recognize the subtleties of utility.

Keep up the good work. Thank you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

I MAKE IT HAPPEN

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
Except the latter is true.
It's not overblown. Coming from a diamond s3 support main I can attest that seeing 1 janna out of every 10 annie's is solid indication that the only real supports are a select few. You will no longer be able to carry anywhere near as easily as you could have previously with the old style of supports, yet these new carry style supports allow players to walk all over the enemy team. Non-kill oriented carry supports (ie not thresh/annie) require an absurd amount of ap in order to reach their supposedly effective scaling potential, yet this income isn't realistically obtainable because these supports aren't designed to prioritize kills, thus they're short of the gold needed to realistically achieve their utility based scaling. What's more, they're then forced to go with primarily aura oriented items in order to retain a presence in the game (which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but...) but this is just a downgraded version of their former selves, prior to the support overhaul, because back then these types of supports went auramancers anyways, yet didn't need absurd amounts of ap in order to be effective. If you do primarily build ap on these types of supports, you'll be mostly starved for gold, and your utility outside of 1 or 2 abilites won't be very powerful because you'll have invested all of your gold into ap carry style items. The only solution to this is to either nerf the kings of supports, who function as kill/carry oriented supports that don't suffer the same ratio gauntlet as the utility classic style supports, or to buff the scaling of these classic style supports to allow them to build some ap without requiring a gross over commitment and over investment. Outright commanding your playerbase to be silent over a particular issue because your perception of balance regarding the issue differs from there's isn't exactly productive for discourse or progressive balancing...