What we expected when Riot said "Support Utility will scale with AP"

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Tara Savelo

Junior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
There has either been a Thresh, Leona, or Annie in most, if not all of my (main account) games this week, but I'm just a lowly blind pick player...

If there was anyone else, they certainly weren't as painfully memorable as these three...


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0xiDIzE

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That might be true. I just don't want the support "religious argument" to cloud the conversation about support scaling needing more work.

We agree there generally (and some of this is in the support items, too - Xyph and friends are plowing on that right now).
Bottom line is that a lot more work needed to be done before the season started. We got a few minor changes to the support role and the jungle role after the initial pre-season overhaul was introduced, and what we needed were several sets of sweeping changes. Nothing about the overall game feels the way it should right now, and that's not just because it doesn't feel like Season 3. Roles aren't what they once were, and thus tons of champions are being cast aside for a select few god-tier which can fill the roles in terms of what they've become.

I was honestly shocked and disappointed when the beginning of Season 4 was announced. I actually trusted you and Riot for once when you said there would be a lot of fine tuning done beforehand. My mistake, I guess.


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Ratastok

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Morello any chance AP ratios could be added to Sona's auras?


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ElBoob

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

I wanted to rage at Morello and his hatred of supports, but I'd rather just go play some Chang'e in Smite. At least she is allowed to do something.


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mertatron

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
true but they were and are the main supports played

last season .. it was mostly nami, lulu, thresh, leona, sona, zyra, fiddle and near the end came up annies.

there was a lot more diversity. .. Zyra almost disappeared and the squishy supports are not often seen now.

the issue is .. supports don't buy AP ... of just a little bit .. even annie support doesn't build AP ... so what's the need of AP scaling is anyway supports don't use it in the end. plus when u see .. frost queen is not a really used item. people prefer talisman ou targon.

why can't there be for them supports other scalings like u did a bit for soraka, taric and leona ? HP scaling, mana scaling, CDR scaling, MS scaling, armor scaling or mr scaling ... coz that's the real stats supports build .. honnestly.


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Huudi

Senior Member

01-29-2014

I know you're indignant about server hate, Morello, but OP is right about support scaling. The tankiness of leona and thresh is just so much more easily quantified than the wispy scaling of speed ups and slowdowns


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That might be true. I just don't want the support "religious argument" to cloud the conversation about support scaling needing more work.
I continue to think your messaging on this topic is unnecessarily incendiary.

You're right that people are overdramatizing the current situation with supports. I actually think that support itemization is the more pressing concern than support champion balance; I would argue that a big reason why Leona and Thresh are so dominant is that they have access to superior itemization compared to the squishy supports. It is possible this problem always existed, but was masked by the whole "supports don't buy items" thing.

Concretely:
1. Doran's Shield works great for laners and supports, while Doran's Ring has tons of wasted value on a support.
2. Frost Queen's Claim is really horrible.
3. The best support items have zero AP but are pretty solid for tanks.
4. Buying a single mage item (e.g. Deathfire Grasp) has less impact than buying a single tank item (e.g. Randuin's Omen); the mage itemization is built around the idea that you'll have force multipliers like Rabadon's, DFG, and Void Staff but supports can't realistically get a full mage build.

I don't think that repairing the itemization issues will fix every magey support, but I would expect to see Lulu and Nami start feeling competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We agree there generally (and some of this is in the support items, too - Xyph and friends are plowing on that right now).
Glad to hear it.


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Melina

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, two things:

1) Agree support scaling needs a tuning pass. More follow-up we need to do there.
2) Stop with the "ONLY NON-SUPPORTS ARE IN-GAME" when Lulu, Nami, Taric and even some Janna are getting played in lieu of this. Don't overblow a reasonable critique of the scaling satisfaction with false and sensationalized statements.
Morello. Why you did this


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Ratastok

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Also,Morello,while you're here, You expect supports to buy AP,but plenty of us support players preffer buying items with no AP (Mikaels,Talisman,Zekes,Locket) thus making the support utility changes a nerf in this situation,any opinion on this?


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TheDevicer

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Support scalings is only part of the issue. One of the bigger factors here is just how strong coin and brace are in comparison to pick and how insanely good Doran's Shield is. It's gotten to the point where not starting Shield is virtually unheard of. It makes poke supports suffer to a very high degree. Then you add in how strong all-in engages are and how hard they counter poke-style play and you arrive where we're at.

Shield needs to be addressed alongside spellthief.