Ironstylus: "We're on track to release a VU every month or so."

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LeitonGrey

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clompy View Post
They don't need to reply to everyone. I agree, that is unrealistic. My problem is that Riot has an extremely bad habit of ignoring valid points simply because they don't like the language being used. That is incredibly irresponsible and not good business practice.
Not to devolve into spewing useless semantics, but a "valid point" with terrible presentation is going to be ignored by any business. If you have a valid point, don't surround it by the "omfg rito sux f u rito fix raka pls." That makes NOBODY want to listen to what you have to say.


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Welcome to democracy?

Anyway, when I say toxic I refer to flaming, harassment and treatment of others which is charged in order to deliberately create a negative emotional response. It's pretty simple:

Upvote this stuff: "I really dislike how you executed on X because of A, B and C."

Downvote this stuff: "@#%$ you Riot, you suck, that is all."

Give me a thread full of those first types of comments and I'll answer all the productive negative feedback there might be. Give me a thread full of rude and threatening posts and I'll gladly float over to the threads about parrot pictures.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss this, IronStylus. I am excited about some of the new features a new forum format could bring, but the Reddit style does concern me. For example, the bolded part above could very easily be something that would never be seen if it is not a part of the popular opinion at the time, or if I am too late to the discussion to get upvotes. It's the second part that concerns me most--I feel like there is way too much emphasis on being "first to the party" in a Reddit-style format.


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Clompy

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeitonGrey View Post
Not to devolve into spewing useless semantics, but a "valid point" with terrible presentation is going to be ignored by any business. If you have a valid point, don't surround it by the "omfg rito sux f u rito fix raka pls." That makes NOBODY want to listen to what you have to say.
There is a difference between "omfg rito sux f u rito fix raka pls."and negative feedback. Your extreme example doesn't really add anything to the discussion. There will always be outliers. Also, even if a person posts their feedback in such a way, does it make less accurate? I submit that it does not. Soraka would either have either been broken or not, regardless of the post. If Riot sees that and does nothing simply because of acronyms and mispellingings, then they are worse than the original poster. The second you see yourself as "above" another person or person's comments, you have failed.


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LeitonGrey

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clompy View Post
There is a difference between "omfg rito sux f u rito fix raka pls."and negative feedback. Your extreme example doesn't really add anything to the discussion. There will always be outliers. Also, even if a person posts their feedback in such a way, does it make less accurate? I submit that it does not. Soraka would either have either been broken or not, regardless of the post. If Riot sees that and does nothing simply because of acronyms and mispellingings, then they are worse than the original poster. The second you see yourself as "above" another person or person's comments, you have failed.
Again, from a completely business-oriented standpoint, presentation is everything. It doesn't matter what you have to say, you have to say it well. I know my example was a bit extreme, but can you really deny that it isn't frequently justified by the GD community?

Any time I've seen genuine, constructively negative feedback, Riot has been quick to respond, explaining their viewpoint. At some points, I've even see this community change Riot's minds about things. At all of those points, the valid points were presented well, with thought-out posts, statistics, and ideas.


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Sol Badguy

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Welcome to democracy?

I like you most of the time but you need to actually spend a bit of time leaning the intricacies of how a democracy works before you make really uninformed/smartass comments. Voting is only one extremely small part of how an actual democracy works


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rastarogue

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Oh not at all. I'm just saying that a cool thing happened, and it happened in a new venue, and it was easy to track. It's great! I've had awesome discussions on this board. Why would I be here in this very thread if that wasn't the case?

It has however been, in the first day, more productive than a lot of other discussions because what's been asked, and is important, is at the top, easy to answer. There's not a lot of noise to sort through. I've also flipped it around, sorted by newest, to see what I might have missed.
I don't want to attack, just stating my opinion.
What I have run into with reddit and now with the beta site is a complete inability to make sure I've read everything. Even in a situation like the Sion thread where I checked in on it at the very beginning and then every couple of hours throughout the day I would find myself unable to read everybody's posts. What I love about forum style set ups, (like the current forums!) is that if I leave a thread, I can bookmark my spot and pick up from there reading page by page and following the discussions. I seem unable to do that with the reddit style set up and it's frustrating as it makes me not want to comment or participate in anyway as I may just be repeating something other people have said or asking a question that's already been answered.

Thanks for listening ironstylus, and I as a scientist I do appreciate the need for testing and experimentation, I just kind of wish it didn't happen with threads I care about.

Anyway, you're awesome.


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AwesomeGuy09

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Will Gangplank receive a VU?


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

02-04-2014
65 of 78 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeitonGrey View Post
Not to devolve into spewing useless semantics, but a "valid point" with terrible presentation is going to be ignored by any business. If you have a valid point, don't surround it by the "omfg rito sux f u rito fix raka pls." That makes NOBODY want to listen to what you have to say.
Pretty much this.

This is the philosophy I abide by. I'm not going to address negative feedback which is delivered in a toxic, non-polite fashion even if it does have valid points. If those points are buried in vitriol, it automatically is passed by. That's just my policy. I don't have time to address rudeness, period.

If someone gives me feedback which disagrees with what we're doing, is phrased politely, presented rationally, and gives me the same respect I'm giving others, then I will approach it. We may completely disagree, we might never come to consensus, but it will remain civil and respect will be maintained. At least a discussion will be had.

There are too few hours in the day to be throttled by feedback that's wrapped in anger and negativity. It's a time sink for all of us. To have that negative feedback, presented by those negative individuals, given equal weight as those who take the time to center their emotions, compose their posts politely and engage in a discussion that is mutually respectful, is unfair.

I will have no problem seeing vitriol decrease. You will have more dev presence if it does indeed decrease.

Which do you want? Negative feedback that's presented in a toxic way having equal weight as negative feedback presented in a positive way and the dev presence fall off, or constructive and possibly negative feedback, presented politely and rationally, treated as higher value and encourage devs to interact?

I know which behavior I'll be responding to.

Thanks for the discussion on this topic. There's a lot I can take back to the community dev team and hopefully we can incorporate some helpful features. I appreciate the passion, feedback and suggestions. Time to move on to some other business.


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JigglyCommando

Junior Member

02-04-2014

Hear Hear!


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Rauron

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I will have no problem seeing vitriol decrease. You will have more dev presence if it does indeed decrease.

Which do you want? Negative feedback that's presented in a toxic way having equal weight as negative feedback presented in a positive way and the dev presence fall off, or constructive and possibly negative feedback, presented politely and rationally, treated as higher value and encourage devs to interact?

I know which behavior I'll be responding to.
You present some sort of toxic/awesome binary and then link that to the vBulletin/community split as though there's any sort of valid comparison there. Not only does the aforementioned binary not exist at all, but also the new site will do nothing to decrease the actual manifestations of hostility and vitriol already present.