Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Alorasence

Senior Member

02-24-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokemonkey11 View Post
I didn't say it was hard to land. All you have to do is hit W and it can't miss if the target is within range (it has no animation time). But landing it does require good positioning of the ball, which isn't hard to dodge unless it's attached to a champion with a gap-closer, which is a great dynamic from my perspective.



I disagree. Athene's is core on Ori and a fixed 9 second cooldown on W becomes 7 seconds - plus the damage from Q is reasonable even at low levels. Ahri by comparison has a 12 second cooldown on her charm and Athene's isn't core. That's almost a 100% increase.



Crescent Strike is on a 6 second cooldown at level 5 without CDR. That's quite a small window of opportunity for players to take advantage. I'm not here to argue that Diana should have a nerf to her Q cooldown though! If anything, her Q is the best part of her kit.



I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it shouldn't be trivial for Diana to get to melee range.



My mistake, I have thought W is charm and E is the lock-on when I wrote that. I hope it makes more sense now.



I wasn't using Ahri as an example of melee range damage, I was using her as an example of assassins with abilities that have reasonable counterplay.



Sure, Lux is ranged, and her CDR build should incentivize using her innate, but skillshots are easier to land up close, and regardless, melee champions like diana are inherently more durable. I feel like you're misattributing what I've said by implying the example isn't applicable since Lux is ranged. So what? Think about it - if Diana misses Q her full burst is still very real and imminent. If Lux misses any of her abilities, QER, it's a loss of minimum 60% AP for her burst for at least 6 seconds. (Assuming she misses E and has 40% CDR). Consider the importance of Lux landing QER when her team engages compared to the importance of Diana landing Q when she is engaging herself, and the cooldowns of all these abilities.



Jax can be played as a tank just as effectively as Trundle, Darius, Rengar, and Irelia, and isn't nearly as bursty as yasuo (who is scheduled for nerfs, so the argument is kind of void). They may not be "really strong" but Rumble, Mordekaiser, Xin Zhao, and Lee Sin fit the description - and Diana would be nothing like them with my suggested kit changes. Regardless of all that, Jax' burst can be avoided whereas Diana cannot. Yasuo is less durable and can't engage. Neither of those champions have the same problem as Diana.

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You're completely ignoring my point. Nearly every melee champion has to close gap to be powerful, and the argument that Diana puts herself in the middle is insufficient because it's her only option. Without diving a carry, Diana currently is worthless - that's exactly what I'm trying to address, because it's anti-fun from both perspectives, and by giving Diana more power and reducing her ability to specifically kill a carry without counter-play is how I would address that.



Generally yes, but if you plan to assassinate someone with your full combo you better have it off cooldown and land the true damage. Your opponent will care if you miss!



I don't want to argue against that but I will say that according to pro builds, athene's is viable on Ahri in 1/15 cases.



Diana can jump to a carry without being blocked by a tank except in really clutch plays from champs like vi and thresh. The level of counterplay here is an extremely small window, and the difference between landing Charm and Crescent Slash is a hilarious comparison.



Diana compensates for that by having more durability.



You're not right, but let's pretend you are. They're not trivial to land. The window of counterplay involved with Lux's Binding is much bigger than that of Diana's full combo. If you think Cassiopeia's ulti is similarly difficult to land as Diana's ulti, you're lying.

This is a mess....

Alright


Here it goes.

Your first point about Orianna is irrelevant to the discussion. So I'm not going to comment. Utility mages are not assassins.

Second, you argue that Orianna maxing w can be considered a burst mage. No she cannot. Even Orianna maxing Q is a stretch. And bringing Athene's Unholy Grail into an argument like that is ridiculous; that item is a defensive mana creation item, and is not designed or intended to be used, for burst mages.

Your third point worth mentioning is the CD on her Q. It is 6 seconds. Six seconds is an incredible amount of time to wait before engaging into a fight. Q is a punishing, almost devastating spell to miss on Diana. She doesn't function like the mages you are comparing her to. Missing a Q on Ahri is irrelevant; she can continue to do damage in other ways. Diana has to, HAS TO, land Q, or she does nothing. She functions like Talon if his E was a skillshot. Neither champion does a damn thing if that gap close doesn't land. Diana can miss, and missing, can mean the end of the game.

You said that Diana has "real burst" even if she misses her Q. You are....confused at best.

Your argument after that involves a comparison with Lux which is, just like Orianna, irrelevent. Not the same champion nor the same role.



Then you start talking about Jax, Irelia, Xin Zhou and Darius. And I have no idea why. They are tanks and they are fighters and they have NO THING, NOTHING....... to do with Diana.

http://i.imgur.com/5PWR2.gif


I'd be happy to continue this discussion....but stop comparing apples to opals.


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depredator56

Member

02-24-2014

riot buff diana pls


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Cokemonkey11

Junior Member

02-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
This is a mess....
It was very organised.

Quote:
Your first point about Orianna is irrelevant to the discussion. So I'm not going to comment. Utility mages are not assassins.

Second, you argue that Orianna maxing w can be considered a burst mage. No she cannot. Even Orianna maxing Q is a stretch. And bringing Athene's Unholy Grail into an argument like that is ridiculous; that item is a defensive mana creation item, and is not designed or intended to be used, for burst mages.
Yeah, I agree. Since you seem to be new to the discussion I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest reading the whole conversation. I never suggested that Orianna is a burst mage, indeed I suggested the opposite.

Quote:
Your third point worth mentioning is the CD on her Q. It is 6 seconds. Six seconds is an incredible amount of time to wait before engaging into a fight. Q is a punishing, almost devastating spell to miss on Diana. She doesn't function like the mages you are comparing her to. Missing a Q on Ahri is irrelevant; she can continue to do damage in other ways. Diana has to, HAS TO, land Q, or she does nothing. She functions like Talon if his E was a skillshot. Neither champion does a damn thing if that gap close doesn't land. Diana can miss, and missing, can mean the end of the game.
I disagree. A 6 second cooldown on an ability is always possible to wait out, unless you miss 3 times in a row or something. Even more so that Diana's burst relies on Q being the initial component.

Quote:
You said that Diana has "real burst" even if she misses her Q. You are....confused at best.
Yes, 6 seconds later she has her her full combo available and she's no more vulnerable than she was.

Quote:
Your argument after that involves a comparison with Lux which is, just like Orianna, irrelevent. Not the same champion nor the same role.

Then you start talking about Jax, Irelia, Xin Zhou and Darius. And I have no idea why. They are tanks and they are fighters and they have NO THING, NOTHING....... to do with Diana.
Please, read the whole discussion.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-25-2014

His point is that Diana is not any of those champs and should not be made to function like them. She should not be forced into a meat shield. She should be forced to rely on auto attacks where everyone that already does will do it better and with more safety. And like everyone is saying you don't really know what you are talking about by saying she has no punish time and all that other nonsense.


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Trixor

Senior Member

02-25-2014

I don't get how people are saying diana's Q is why shes problematic. You're honestly bronze or silver if you think her Q is the problem. The whole reason she isn't played in high elo's is because of how EASY it is to dodge the freakin thing. I hate how people say "oh its on 6 second cd". If your team engages in a 5v5 you miss you're screwed that team fight 100% someone like ahri can dish out loads of damage even without landing her E due to the fact shes ranged. And keep in mind you can't just walk past the shyvana whos beating you in face to land that Q. Not to mention the enemy adc has arcane shift, and dodges it anyways. Also akalis full ultimate does 150% ap damage. Theres no reason to pick diana over her at all. When you have to land your Q to do a measly 120% ap damage and 60% ap damage without.

Her missing Q is the most devastating and unforgiving thing in the game pretty much. Her other abilities are melee, so if she misses a Q in a team fight she either has to use her ultimate and not have the reset, and proceed to get kited. Or be completely useless for 6 seconds why her team gets steam rolled because she has no damage from range till then. Champions like ahri can just use their AoE ranged abilities to keep doing damage. diana doesn't have this luxury. I don't even care about diana, but it pisses me off people think her Q is problematic when its the whole reason she isn't played in high elo. You can ask scarra one day in his stream why diana isn't good anymore. And he'll tell you the same thing her Q is way too easy to dodge.


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

02-25-2014

I don't know how many times I have lost games because I couldn't land my q on the carry. It has to be the most unforgiving skill shot in the game especially late game during extended team fights! There is no going or coming back!


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans1ing View Post
I don't know how many times I have lost games because I couldn't land my q on the carry. It has to be the most unforgiving skill shot in the game especially late game during extended team fights! There is no going or coming back!
I have seriously had the carry must stay out of Q range and not care about what I was doing at all. I have been running around destroying the map but I can't build tank with that gold because it is a mediocre transitions nd needs to be damage instead but since she is melee and can be easily focused she can't carry as well as pretty much every other champion that does her job. I did a 400AP build on her recently that allowed me to smash because I had 30% CDR but that only worked because of the armor I got with the build. She could use a slight ratio buff to her damage spells meaning Q and R and asd some reliability to Q. Boom she is viable as a carry jungle or laner and minimal effort on Riot's part. Please do not rework her. Flexibility in a champion is pretty awesome and while I will probably never do a full on bruiser build with her at least I am willing to use Nashor's tooth. That is building for her passive and helping her assassinate. Just hear me out Riot please.


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Hyrum Graff

Senior Member

02-27-2014

TL;DR: Lee Sin and Diana have very similar kits*, therefore Lee is a good point of reference for when you're looking to make Diana buffs (because lord knows she doesn't need nerfs). *but lee's is objectively much stronger.
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1) They both have autoattack based passives. Lee's gives him a 40% AS boost on two attacks after using an abilitiy, while Diana's gives her a flat 20% AD, and magic damage every 3rd hit.

Lee's autos already scale with the stat that he builds for his abilities. Diana's cleave passive essentially lets her do the same.


2) They both have a skillshot q that is essenntial to sticking to targets, although Lee's gapcloser is also in his q while diana's is her ult. Diana's has better scaling and base values, but a much smaller range and is her ult (and I'm not counting lee's q scaling with a target's missing HP). Granted, Lee's can be bodyblocked by a different enemy while Diana's q just hits them both.

Lee: 975/infinite range ability on a 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 second cooldown thaty deals 100 to 340 (+ 180% bonus AD) (+ 8% target's missing health) total physical damage.

Diana: 830/825 range ability on a 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 second cooldown that deals 160 to 420 (+ 130% bonus AP) total magic damage.


3) Both have a W that shields. Diana's has damage attached, while Lee's has mobility and lifesteal.

Lee: 700 range, 9s CD, 40-200 (+80% AP) shield, 5-25% lifesteal for 5 seconds.

Diana: 200 range, 10s CD, 80-200 (+ 60% AP) shield if you get the refresh. 66-210 (+ 60% AP) magic damage.


4) Both have an aoe slow. Lee's has damage attached, while Diana's also displaces her opponent.

Lee: 350 range, 10s CD, 20-60% slow to movement AND attack speed that recovers over 4 seconds, 60-200 (+ 100% AD) damage. Note that this is *slightly* less than Diana's w.

Diana: 250 range, 26-18s CD, 35-55% slow to movespeed only.

5) Since I counted Diana's q->r combo as part of her q, I'll only count a r without q in this section.

Lee: 375 range, 90-60s CD, 1200 unit knockback over 1 second. Deals 200 / 400 / 600 (+ 200% bonus AD) physical damage to target and anyone the target collides with. Additionally, knocks up anyone the target collides with for 1 second.

Diana: 825 range, 25-15s CD, 100-220 (+ 60% AP) magic damage. Dashes to target.

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So while we're talking about Diana being anti-fun because if she hits her Q, she'll unload her full combo on you with no counterplay, then have a shield that makes her tanky and good dps so she can 1v1 a tank after instaglibbing the carry... maybe we should talk about how Lee Sin can do the same thing, and make it out alive?


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lnzane

Senior Member

02-27-2014

and just like that, she gets indirectly nerfed for the upmteenth time
through the lich bane gut


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-28-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrum Graff View Post
TL;DR: Lee Sin and Diana have very similar kits*, therefore Lee is a good point of reference for when you're looking to make Diana buffs (because lord knows she doesn't need nerfs). *but lee's is objectively much stronger.
-----
1) They both have autoattack based passives. Lee's gives him a 40% AS boost on two attacks after using an abilitiy, while Diana's gives her a flat 20% AD, and magic damage every 3rd hit.

Lee's autos already scale with the stat that he builds for his abilities. Diana's cleave passive essentially lets her do the same.


2) They both have a skillshot q that is essenntial to sticking to targets, although Lee's gapcloser is also in his q while diana's is her ult. Diana's has better scaling and base values, but a much smaller range and is her ult (and I'm not counting lee's q scaling with a target's missing HP). Granted, Lee's can be bodyblocked by a different enemy while Diana's q just hits them both.

Lee: 975/infinite range ability on a 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 second cooldown thaty deals 100 to 340 (+ 180% bonus AD) (+ 8% target's missing health) total physical damage.

Diana: 830/825 range ability on a 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 second cooldown that deals 160 to 420 (+ 130% bonus AP) total magic damage.


3) Both have a W that shields. Diana's has damage attached, while Lee's has mobility and lifesteal.

Lee: 700 range, 9s CD, 40-200 (+80% AP) shield, 5-25% lifesteal for 5 seconds.

Diana: 200 range, 10s CD, 80-200 (+ 60% AP) shield if you get the refresh. 66-210 (+ 60% AP) magic damage.


4) Both have an aoe slow. Lee's has damage attached, while Diana's also displaces her opponent.

Lee: 350 range, 10s CD, 20-60% slow to movement AND attack speed that recovers over 4 seconds, 60-200 (+ 100% AD) damage. Note that this is *slightly* less than Diana's w.

Diana: 250 range, 26-18s CD, 35-55% slow to movespeed only.

5) Since I counted Diana's q->r combo as part of her q, I'll only count a r without q in this section.

Lee: 375 range, 90-60s CD, 1200 unit knockback over 1 second. Deals 200 / 400 / 600 (+ 200% bonus AD) physical damage to target and anyone the target collides with. Additionally, knocks up anyone the target collides with for 1 second.

Diana: 825 range, 25-15s CD, 100-220 (+ 60% AP) magic damage. Dashes to target.

----------------------------------------

So while we're talking about Diana being anti-fun because if she hits her Q, she'll unload her full combo on you with no counterplay, then have a shield that makes her tanky and good dps so she can 1v1 a tank after instaglibbing the carry... maybe we should talk about how Lee Sin can do the same thing, and make it out alive?
Why thank my brother. This is a mighty fine comparison and I hope Riot stops trying to keep her weak or force her into being a meat shield. The Lich bane nerf is yet another thing hurting Diana because they felt like it. And for whatever reason TF and Fizz get compensation but she doesn't.


Riot must hate Diana besides Iron Stylus.