Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-22-2014

Saturday bump for GD.


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

02-22-2014

Justice for Diana!


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

02-22-2014

Bump!


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Cokemonkey11

Junior Member

02-22-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Because if all the melee burst gets gutted then the range burst will have to go.
I don't think it's quite that black and white. Burst damage isn't the problem on Diana, the problem is that the only "skillshot" component of her burst is zero-risk. If she misses her Q she can just wait a few seconds and try again. Compare that to Ahri. Q is dodgable, and the true damage is twice as dodgable. W is dodgeable. She has to close gap to damage with E. Her R can be tanked by a bodyguard. Everything about her has to be very precise in terms of positioning and prediction, whereas once Diana lands Q, her full burst is essentially unavoidable.

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Diana is in this current state because they think she is unhealthy. What I am telling you is that literally anyone csj end up in the cross hairs and if too many nerfs happen and you push all the more burst oriented champs into dos then champs like Ori are gonna get hit next.
That's fine, I have no complaints about my preferred champions being the target of nerfs.

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This is about Diana + game health at this point. Maybe that's why you are confused because you are not looking at this in the big picture. You are balancing her in a vacuum instead of in the game world it seems. Look over again it should make more sense to you when you encompass all of it.
I am not confused, I believe I have a very lucid understanding of the current state. I don't have a problem with putting Diana in a spot that doesn't fit the meta because I want to give the meta room to change. If the changes to Diana I suggested reduced her P/B rate, it could be compensated for by adjusting numbers. DPS champions are still viable. See: Orianna

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Also her single target damage may not be as high but a shockwave on four plus dissonace more than makes up for it because it is AOE
Orianna's shockwave has a half second windup time and both her W and R require good placement and positioning of the ball. Lux's QER combo is also AoE and has a higher AP ratio. Cassiopeia is even higher. What all these champions have in common is that their combo isn't trivial to land, unlike champions like Diana and Kassadin.

That is why Diana is a problem.


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

02-23-2014

@vesh-an update would be nice


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-23-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokemonkey11 View Post
I don't think it's quite that black and white. Burst damage isn't the problem on Diana, the problem is that the only "skillshot" component of her burst is zero-risk. If she misses her Q she can just wait a few seconds and try again. Compare that to Ahri. Q is dodgable, and the true damage is twice as dodgable. W is dodgeable. She has to close gap to damage with E. Her R can be tanked by a bodyguard. Everything about her has to be very precise in terms of positioning and prediction, whereas once Diana lands Q, her full burst is essentially unavoidable.



That's fine, I have no complaints about my preferred champions being the target of nerfs.



I am not confused, I believe I have a very lucid understanding of the current state. I don't have a problem with putting Diana in a spot that doesn't fit the meta because I want to give the meta room to change. If the changes to Diana I suggested reduced her P/B rate, it could be compensated for by adjusting numbers. DPS champions are still viable. See: Orianna



Orianna's shockwave has a half second windup time and both her W and R require good placement and positioning of the ball. Lux's QER combo is also AoE and has a higher AP ratio. Cassiopeia is even higher. What all these champions have in common is that their combo isn't trivial to land, unlike champions like Diana and Kassadin.

That is why Diana is a problem.
If you think that Ori has a hard W to land I don't even know what to say. The argument about Rbis somewhat valid. Also Oriana with W maxed first is not a DPS mage. Hell I have never even heard someone call her that. Also as for the dodge the skillshot comment. Literally every champion can just wait for cooldowns and then do it again. You are essentially daying melee characters shouldn't yet to have burst because if they are on you then you can't dodge the damage. That is what makes a melee champion viable.

Why would you ever play Melee when you can just burst from range. Also you can't dodge the Ahro W it is an auto lock on. Her R will actually split three ways as well and does not require actually being in melee range to land. Pretty sure the spell damage has around 700 range. Also charm has a range of like 1300 she does not need to be melee range fot that. Where are you getting your information? You are confusing me with your level of inaccuracies to put it bluntly.

Also a decent Lux has enough CDR that her combo becomes trivial. Not to mention her passive. Also let it be noted that of she does miss her Q or E she can just walk away and wait a few seconds because she was never kn danger due to them both having 1000+ range. I don't think you understand this game nearly as well as you think you do. All of your comparisons are counter intuitive to your argument because what your thought process is basically revolves around wanting yo make a niche champion out of someone just because. Go make a new champion then. Don't gut and ruin one that already exist.

What melee DPS champions are considered really strong right now that aren'tt tanks? Jsx and Yasuo. Yasuo is basically a crit machine and Jax is a mixed damage bomb that hits you so hard he might as well have burst. So basically makingg Diana into a Jax that only builds AP I'd what you are suggesting. The thing that makes Jax work is that he is mixed damage. If the made him pure physical he would be okay and if they made him pure magic be would be absolute trash. Rum the numbers.


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Aggression

Senior Member

02-23-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokemonkey11 View Post

<stuff implying q being easy to hit makes her burst unavoidable>

That is why Diana is a problem.
oh my god you have no idea what you're talking about

the fact that her R isn't a skillshot has nothing to do with 'unavoidable'
diana puts herself in melee range to do her 'unavoidable' burst, leaving her fully able to be attacked, with literally zero escapes (unless she saves her second R, which means her "burst" is the absolute lowest of every ap mid).

"ahri's combo is really hard and lots of skillshots you can dodge". what. ahri's q is safe to spam all day every day, if she misses who cares. ahri gets to build athenes if she wants, its not a trash item on her like it is on diana. if ahri lands her charm she 100% lands all her other spells. her ult "can be blocked" like wtf are you on, if theres a tank line diana can't even hurt the tanks with her ult because she has to jump to them and die

lux, ori, etc, their combo "isnt trivial to land"????
all of them have long range spells that are at least as far if not farther than diana's q
they also have ranged autos
they also have all their other skills usable from range
none of their skills are even slightly hard to hit


basically everything you said was wrong


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-23-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by aggression View Post
oh my god you have no idea what you're talking about

the fact that her r isn't a skillshot has nothing to do with 'unavoidable'
diana puts herself in melee range to do her 'unavoidable' burst, leaving her fully able to be attacked, with literally zero escapes (unless she saves her second r, which means her "burst" is the absolute lowest of every ap mid).

"ahri's combo is really hard and lots of skillshots you can dodge". What. Ahri's q is safe to spam all day every day, if she misses who cares. Ahri gets to build athenes if she wants, its not a trash item on her like it is on diana. If ahri lands her charm she 100% lands all her other spells. Her ult "can be blocked" like wtf are you on, if theres a tank line diana can't even hurt the tanks with her ult because she has to jump to them and die

lux, ori, etc, their combo "isnt trivial to land"????
All of them have long range spells that are at least as far if not farther than diana's q
they also have ranged autos
they also have all their other skills usable from range
none of their skills are even slightly hard to hit


basically everything you said was wrong
preach brother!!!!!!


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Cokemonkey11

Junior Member

02-23-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
If you think that Ori has a hard W to land I don't even know what to say.
I didn't say it was hard to land. All you have to do is hit W and it can't miss if the target is within range (it has no animation time). But landing it does require good positioning of the ball, which isn't hard to dodge unless it's attached to a champion with a gap-closer, which is a great dynamic from my perspective.

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Also Oriana with W maxed first is not a DPS mage.
I disagree. Athene's is core on Ori and a fixed 9 second cooldown on W becomes 7 seconds - plus the damage from Q is reasonable even at low levels. Ahri by comparison has a 12 second cooldown on her charm and Athene's isn't core. That's almost a 100% increase.

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Literally every champion can just wait for cooldowns and then do it again.
Crescent Strike is on a 6 second cooldown at level 5 without CDR. That's quite a small window of opportunity for players to take advantage. I'm not here to argue that Diana should have a nerf to her Q cooldown though! If anything, her Q is the best part of her kit.

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You are essentially daying melee characters shouldn't yet to have burst because if they are on you then you can't dodge the damage. That is what makes a melee champion viable.
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it shouldn't be trivial for Diana to get to melee range.

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Also you can't dodge the Ahro W it is an auto lock on.
My mistake, I have thought W is charm and E is the lock-on when I wrote that. I hope it makes more sense now.

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Her R will actually split three ways as well and does not require actually being in melee range to land. Pretty sure the spell damage has around 700 range. Also charm has a range of like 1300 she does not need to be melee range fot that.
I wasn't using Ahri as an example of melee range damage, I was using her as an example of assassins with abilities that have reasonable counterplay.

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Also a decent Lux has enough CDR that her combo becomes trivial. Not to mention her passive. Also let it be noted that of she does miss her Q or E she can just walk away and wait a few seconds because she was never kn danger due to them both having 1000+ range.
Sure, Lux is ranged, and her CDR build should incentivize using her innate, but skillshots are easier to land up close, and regardless, melee champions like diana are inherently more durable. I feel like you're misattributing what I've said by implying the example isn't applicable since Lux is ranged. So what? Think about it - if Diana misses Q her full burst is still very real and imminent. If Lux misses any of her abilities, QER, it's a loss of minimum 60% AP for her burst for at least 6 seconds. (Assuming she misses E and has 40% CDR). Consider the importance of Lux landing QER when her team engages compared to the importance of Diana landing Q when she is engaging herself, and the cooldowns of all these abilities.

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What melee DPS champions are considered really strong right now that aren'tt tanks? Jsx and Yasuo.
Jax can be played as a tank just as effectively as Trundle, Darius, Rengar, and Irelia, and isn't nearly as bursty as yasuo (who is scheduled for nerfs, so the argument is kind of void). They may not be "really strong" but Rumble, Mordekaiser, Xin Zhao, and Lee Sin fit the description - and Diana would be nothing like them with my suggested kit changes. Regardless of all that, Jax' burst can be avoided whereas Diana cannot. Yasuo is less durable and can't engage. Neither of those champions have the same problem as Diana.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggression View Post
the fact that her R isn't a skillshot has nothing to do with 'unavoidable'
diana puts herself in melee range to do her 'unavoidable' burst, leaving her fully able to be attacked, with literally zero escapes (unless she saves her second R, which means her "burst" is the absolute lowest of every ap mid).
You're completely ignoring my point. Nearly every melee champion has to close gap to be powerful, and the argument that Diana puts herself in the middle is insufficient because it's her only option. Without diving a carry, Diana currently is worthless - that's exactly what I'm trying to address, because it's anti-fun from both perspectives, and by giving Diana more power and reducing her ability to specifically kill a carry without counter-play is how I would address that.

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ahri's q is safe to spam all day every day, if she misses who cares.
Generally yes, but if you plan to assassinate someone with your full combo you better have it off cooldown and land the true damage. Your opponent will care if you miss!

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ahri gets to build athenes if she wants, its not a trash item on her like it is on diana.
I don't want to argue against that but I will say that according to pro builds, athene's is viable on Ahri in 1/15 cases.

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if ahri lands her charm she 100% lands all her other spells. her ult "can be blocked" like wtf are you on, if theres a tank line diana can't even hurt the tanks with her ult because she has to jump to them and die
Diana can jump to a carry without being blocked by a tank except in really clutch plays from champs like vi and thresh. The level of counterplay here is an extremely small window, and the difference between landing Charm and Crescent Slash is a hilarious comparison.

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all of them have long range spells that are at least as far if not farther than diana's. they also have ranged autos
they also have all their other skills usable from range
Diana compensates for that by having more durability.

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none of their skills are even slightly hard to hit
You're not right, but let's pretend you are. They're not trivial to land. The window of counterplay involved with Lux's Binding is much bigger than that of Diana's full combo. If you think Cassiopeia's ulti is similarly difficult to land as Diana's ulti, you're lying.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-23-2014

It takes too much effort to explain how wrong you are. Just go play her and actually learn the champion so you know what you are talking about.