Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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SuperLuigiLXIV

Senior Member

02-12-2014

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Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
The simplest reason why ot won't work out is she won't be good enough as am initator with that trope covered wo well already. And more importantly the itemization is not there for mele AP DPS champions that rely on auto attacks. Making her that will be the same as deleting her.
Trufax right here. If you want an AP autoattacker, it HAS to be built into their kit. Skarner's a good example of it, with his autos letting him spam his Q when he's in a fight, but for Diana I'd really like to see her hit less often than Skarner, but much harder.

Also, bump. Cause this thread doesn't need to go away.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigiLXIV View Post
Trufax right here. If you want an AP autoattacker, it HAS to be built into their kit. Skarner's a good example of it, with his autos letting him spam his Q when he's in a fight, but for Diana I'd really like to see her hit less often than Skarner, but much harder.

Also, bump. Cause this thread doesn't need to go away.
If they made her W work more like Gragas then maybe and put cleave on every attack blah blah blah then sure maybe it would work but they would probably greatly lower her damage output per clreave and begin melee would guarantee she ate cc. She just won't be a carry as a bruoser. We want a carry not a peel bot, meat shield, or a distraction.


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

02-12-2014

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Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
If they made her W work more like Gragas then maybe and put cleave on every attack blah blah blah then sure maybe it would work but they would probably greatly lower her damage output per clreave and begin melee would guarantee she ate cc. She just won't be a carry as a bruoser. We want a carry not a peel bot, meat shield, or a distraction.
Agreed she has the theme and personality of a kick ass vengeful slayer who wants to kill those that reject the moon and its power she is suppose to be offensive and the opposite of the Sun. Why would she want to be like Leona. She wants revenge for how she was treated, lied to and misguided by the Solari and later betrayed by her best friend Leona. I'm pretty sure she wants to spill her guts and make her die in agony not sit their and take a beating to finish them off after they are exuasted. You can't have revenge if your going to be passive and defensive you need to be on the assualt or you can kiss your dream goodbye.


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Cokemonkey11

Junior Member

02-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
The simplest reason why ot won't work out is she won't be good enough as am initator with that trope covered wo well already. And more importantly the itemization is not there for mele AP DPS champions that rely on auto attacks. Making her that will be the same as deleting her.
I understand that it's easy to dislike the Diana talks because Diana already has a decent following from players. People like her as a melee assassin initiator fighter. I don't have a problem with Diana's current state because I don't play her and it doesn't affect me.

That's not why I suggested those changes though. My intention was to describe a set of changes that would sound appealing to players even though they reduce her assassin capabilities. That part is necessary because Diana was designed to be a fighter, and her current playstyle in the meta is toxic. That makes perfect sense because Riot's team of professional champion designers didn't intend for her to be a melee assassin initiator. See the issue? If you want to be useful in a discussion, you can't just keep saying "I like her the way she is".

That being said, I don't agree at all with what you said. Your two biggest points were that the changes I suggested would reduce Diana's ability to initiate, and that itemization doesn't exist for melee AP DPS champions.

To the first point, I would say that my suggestion both doesn't change Diana's ability to initiate, and that I wouldn't want to encourage Diana as an initiator in the first place. Champions that were designed with the fighter archetype in mind (as opposed to bruiser) are meant to fight on the edge of battles, safe from being burst down by groups, and out-trading one player at a time on a 1:1 basis. That's where Diana should be, and I think by increasing her power on her innate and by encouraging players to space out their ability casts, not only would her overall damage go up, but her player satisfaction would go up as well, because she wouldn't be locked into such a binary playstyle.

To the second point, I would argue that Nashor's Tooth does everything Diana could ask for and more. Nashor's Tooth should be core on Diana and standard tanky AP items like zhonya's and abyssal should be as well.

Is there any reason why you think my suggestions would not work for Diana as a fighter? Imagine it's not Diana but a new champion, if it helps.


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Aggression

Senior Member

02-12-2014

how about we remember that we don't need to do any major changes at all


like there is no actual reason to tweak her kit beyond numbers. there should be no thoughts of rework. it isnt needed, id rather riot do minor number tweaks to see if those help, and spend their time on things that aren't going to be seen by some people as 'kind of nice' and a lot of people as 'what the flying fcuk"


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

02-12-2014

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Originally Posted by Aggression View Post
how about we remember that we don't need to do any major changes at all


like there is no actual reason to tweak her kit beyond numbers. there should be no thoughts of rework. it isnt needed, id rather riot do minor number tweaks to see if those help, and spend their time on things that aren't going to be seen by some people as 'kind of nice' and a lot of people as 'what the flying fcuk"
This!


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokemonkey11 View Post
I understand that it's easy to dislike the Diana talks because Diana already has a decent following from players. People like her as a melee assassin initiator fighter. I don't have a problem with Diana's current state because I don't play her and it doesn't affect me.

That's not why I suggested those changes though. My intention was to describe a set of changes that would sound appealing to players even though they reduce her assassin capabilities. That part is necessary because Diana was designed to be a fighter, and her current playstyle in the meta is toxic. That makes perfect sense because Riot's team of professional champion designers didn't intend for her to be a melee assassin initiator. See the issue? If you want to be useful in a discussion, you can't just keep saying "I like her the way she is".

That being said, I don't agree at all with what you said. Your two biggest points were that the changes I suggested would reduce Diana's ability to initiate, and that itemization doesn't exist for melee AP DPS champions.

To the first point, I would say that my suggestion both doesn't change Diana's ability to initiate, and that I wouldn't want to encourage Diana as an initiator in the first place. Champions that were designed with the fighter archetype in mind (as opposed to bruiser) are meant to fight on the edge of battles, safe from being burst down by groups, and out-trading one player at a time on a 1:1 basis. That's where Diana should be, and I think by increasing her power on her innate and by encouraging players to space out their ability casts, not only would her overall damage go up, but her player satisfaction would go up as well, because she wouldn't be locked into such a binary playstyle.

To the second point, I would argue that Nashor's Tooth does everything Diana could ask for and more. Nashor's Tooth should be core on Diana and standard tanky AP items like zhonya's and abyssal should be as well.

Is there any reason why you think my suggestions would not work for Diana as a fighter? Imagine it's not Diana but a new champion, if it helps.
First off she is not toxic. Riot has just deemed pretty much all forma of burst toxic for whatever reason. Second off even if you go abyssal zhonyas and Nashors you are still squishy health wise and neither of those are true tank items. In fact hourglass is more utility than tank.

Third off if we have to imagine itnqs a completely different champion then maybe we should just make a different champion.

Fourth off she was fine and not overly popular before her last set of nerfs so clearly she wasn't deemed too strong by most of the playerbase or OP.

Fifth off I was saying that the initiator trope is already crowded and there is no reason to push her into an already crowded design point.

Sixt off if you watch her spotlight she is referred to as an assassin before anything else.

Seventh off making her rely on autoattacks and trying to make her a duelist will not work. There is q reason why every duelist is AD and it is called lifesteal/crit.

Eighth off AP champions are pretty much inherently bursty due to relying on there spells and those that aren't usually require some serious peel and kiting. Diana wouldn't be able to kite. She would also not be able to be peeled for because she would be forced to be melee.

Ninth point. Seeing as you don't play her you don't really seem to understand how she plays. I don't mean to be offensive but as you yourself stated this does not affect you and as such can experiment with her for free essentially. This does effect me and melee AP DPS were viable I think after 118 champions it would exist already.

Final point, Diana was designed to dive and kill the priority target in the back and have a dive buddy . Then fight from there. Saying that diving makes her a fighter duelist and she should be tanky is absurd and in reality rather baseless no offense. Completely altering a champions mechanics s not the way to go. Especially when the problem can be solved with a few reverts to some numbers.

Play Diana you should be able to understand a bit better then.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-12-2014

Morello, Meddler,Zenon anyone around right now willing to talk about this?


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

02-12-2014

@Morello and Friends we wish to discuss our moon lady.


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

02-12-2014

Diana needs help Riot ASAP!