Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-02-2014

[QUOTE=Alorasence;44860368]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Cyrus View Post

"The last person to call it toxic that I encountered stayed in lane right in my face farming with 200HP. No **** I'm going to 1 combo kill you."

Seriously. People complain all the time that they got bursted down. I played with a Lux just today who had taken damage from a failed gank 20 seconds before, and started pushing my wave. I got back to turret and gibbed her. She screams "0 counterplay" in chat.....

The counterplay would have been to recall. Or dodge my Q. Or snare me. Or or push the wave with your e, not your forehead.
Number one way to shut down an assassin mid game is to have wards. Early game must bank the thing. If you are playing mage just keep them under tower. This is all straight forward.


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plusmayhem

Junior Member

02-02-2014

Diana is a bruiser/DPS

That's why her recommended items by riot is DFG


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Neo Cyrus

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
TLDR; QRR isn't toxic. It is punishing to the Diana player at an appropriate level as to make it an uncommon combo. Diana needs buffed directly and her buffs should address her weaknesses.

Diana's weaknesses are:

1. Bad pre-six
2. really harsh mana costs
3. Diana is forced to either have the lane shoved to her turret, or to shove the lane to the enemies turret. Her w and passive push it too hard one way. And to pick off creeps one by one with her q costs too much mana. And to walk up and take a creep risks too much harass when she has no lifesteal or other sustain.
4. Her ratios have been overnerfed, and she no longer has an appropriate late game.
I'm way too tired to read your entire post at the moment but I couldn't agree more with your summary.

The late game I especially consider a severe problem. I just finished an extremely drawn out game today and the entire time I was playing I thought to myself "If I was playing as Diana there's no way we could possibly win". That's because there is no way Diana could engage the enemy with any of her damage (Q W R) without being instantly killed regardless of her build and regardless of who she targets in that particular game which went so late.

Like I said before, 0.1 AP added to her ratios would help a lot with the doomed late game. And that still leaves her base damages incredibly low.


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longhair fox

Junior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
QRR is certainly considered the part of her kit that is unhealthy so let's talk about it.

The reason it is considered abusive is because it is a targeted ability that cannot be dodged. Once she lands her Q, she can fire her ultimate into you, and then immedietly do it again, to burst her target pretty far down.

That is the only reason. Seriously. That is it.


Now lets talk about the drawbacks to a move like that.

First, it costs an enormous amount of mana. Diana has a notoriously low mana pool and very high mana costs, specifically on her w. Her full combo uses nearly half of her entire mana pool.(this is also one of the reasons people shy away from getting her E until later in the game. 70 mana is a tremendous amount of mana to spend on an ability that doesn't actually do damage)

Second, it leaves her ultimate on cooldown. If you decide to QRR your lane opponent, or if you decide to QRR a squishy in a team fight, you are left in the middle of said team, without your mobility tool. Not smart. A good way to die.

Now the reason I said that is to highlight how uncommon it actually is for competent Diana players to use this combo. It is, generally speaking, not a good idea to blindly QRR a target. Unless you can guarantee a kill on a priority target, it usually isn't worth doing. Especially on mid laners or carrys who might have escapes (a lot of them).


For those reasons, I do not think of her QRR combo as either a "core part of her design" or as unhealthy. You can do it, sure. But there are appropriate drawbacks to doing this.



I am not going to bother suggesting changes. There is plenty of that. But I want her problems to be clear and I want possible changes to address those problems.


She has a terrible pre-six because of her painful mana costs and lack of sustain.

She has a hard time controling her wave. She can't just cs like other champions can. She either has to shove it really hard or try to clip off low health creeps with crescent strike (remember the mana costs?). This is because her passive auotmatically pushes the wave along with the activation of her shield (which is mandatory unless you'd like to take the damage of standing in the creep wave while your opponent spams autos and spells on you). Most melee champions can attack the lane creeps with descent sustain because of lifesteal. Obviously Diana does not have lifesteal.


This creep control issue is another one of the reasons Diana can't be played top with any safety. Pushing a wave is worse top lane than it is in any other lane. Jungler's feed off of pushed top laners and if you have no escape (Diana) and have low innate tankness (Diana) you are going to die. This is also the reason top lane has become stagnant with tanks....though thats a problem for another day.

Diana has a weak late game. Every single one of her abilities has been nerfed. Her ratios, which often determine a champions late game, are ****. 60% of AP is garbage. 70% of AP is better, but still not great.


TLDR; QRR isn't toxic. It is punishing to the Diana player at an appropriate level as to make it an uncommon combo. Diana needs buffed directly and her buffs should address her weaknesses.

Diana's weaknesses are:

1. Bad pre-six
2. really harsh mana costs
3. Diana is forced to either have the lane shoved to her turret, or to shove the lane to the enemies turret. Her w and passive push it too hard one way. And to pick off creeps one by one with her q costs too much mana. And to walk up and take a creep risks too much harass when she has no lifesteal or other sustain.
4. Her ratios have been overnerfed, and she no longer has an appropriate late game.
One more point is that riot wants assassins to have an escape after kiling their target as the whole do or die playstyle is really not healty. As she is currently it is hard to 100 to 0 someone without both your shield and at least one r. This leaves her only escape to being ulting back to an enemy frontliner, be cc'ed and die. If we want her to be an assassin her r should be able to target allies. This would probably mean that there are no buffs comming her way.


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Gimily

Junior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhair fox View Post
One more point is that riot wants assassins to have an escape after kiling their target as the whole do or die playstyle is really not healty. As she is currently it is hard to 100 to 0 someone without both your shield and at least one r. This leaves her only escape to being ulting back to an enemy frontliner, be cc'ed and die. If we want her to be an assassin her r should be able to target allies. This would probably mean that there are no buffs comming her way.
I see where ur coming from but thats why you dont dive as diana while all the enemies CC is up, or dive through their tank line, zed cant do that either, the point of an assassin is play behind ur tank line, maybe poke once, then once a the actual fight breaks out u can get to their squishes, im not going to 1v5 a team as diana, that isnt how she works. When playing her as an assassin i paly very similar to how i play katarina, only instead of waiting for someone to be low, u wait for their adc/apc/support to be vulnerable for a kill, its called positioning. if you can kill thier adc/or apc, who is going to be there to kill u? the support? if u cant 1v1 the support even when have like 400 health something is severely wrong. also i still dont get why people think u have to R a second time to kill a squishy, i bet u can kill almost any adc in a QR-AA(with lich bane)-WE-Aa(with lich bane), that should 100-0 any adc in under 3 seconds, which is shorter than zeds death mark timer, and u still have an R and a Q almost off cool down to go kill another target. or escape like people that use QRR are either fighting a 1v1 fight, or extremely ahead(which u still shouldnt need to) or extremely behind and trying to instagib a carry with some help, but knowing u will die. in 95% of teamfights doing QRR is a a detriment to ur kill potential, unless your target flashes way out of the fight then they just supplied ur escape by Ring to them and they are far away from everyone.


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longhair fox

Junior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimily View Post
I see where ur coming from but thats why you dont dive as diana while all the enemies CC is up, or dive through their tank line, zed cant do that either, the point of an assassin is play behind ur tank line, maybe poke once, then once a the actual fight breaks out u can get to their squishes, im not going to 1v5 a team as diana, that isnt how she works. When playing her as an assassin i paly very similar to how i play katarina, only instead of waiting for someone to be low, u wait for their adc/apc/support to be vulnerable for a kill, its called positioning. if you can kill thier adc/or apc, who is going to be there to kill u? the support? if u cant 1v1 the support even when have like 400 health something is severely wrong. also i still dont get why people think u have to R a second time to kill a squishy, i bet u can kill almost any adc in a QR-AA(with lich bane)-WE-Aa(with lich bane), that should 100-0 any adc in under 3 seconds, which is shorter than zeds death mark timer, and u still have an R and a Q almost off cool down to go kill another target. or escape like people that use QRR are either fighting a 1v1 fight, or extremely ahead(which u still shouldnt need to) or extremely behind and trying to instagib a carry with some help, but knowing u will die. in 95% of teamfights doing QRR is a a detriment to ur kill potential, unless your target flashes way out of the fight then they just supplied ur escape by Ring to them and they are far away from everyone.
One one would hope it takes more than one r to kill your opponent. If it doesn't the only counter play there exists is to stay out of her r range which really is not healthy either. Even if it is somehow made healthy the only escape you have is stil only to get to their frontline which really is not an escape seeing how they have had those 3+ seconds to get their cc back up. Remember they still have their other carry to kill you if he hasn't done so already.


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CDiggs

Junior Member

02-02-2014

What if you make it so that a second R on the same target does reduced damage? I always envisioned the refresh on the dash as a way to stick to targets, not just burst them down. You should be rewarded for saving the second dash for when the target tries to flash/escape ability away, not for blowing them up before they have a chance.

You could also make the damage ramp up when targeting a different enemy (but only once). Make the ramped up damage near or equivalent to a double dash on the same target (reduced as I suggested above). This Diana players can still initiate on targets they can reach, and not feel punished when they then chain R onto the carry.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Oh my poor Diana. She's just dropped to 46.7%.


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Nephaelus

Junior Member

02-02-2014

To me, Diana should be the AP equivalent to Yasuo. Yasuo is hard engage, sustained damage champion who wants to dive into the back lines to burst down carries but is balanced by his incredibly squishy nature. Through clever play he can be a dominant opponent but there are a lot of ways to outplay him. He also requires a lot of skill to play well.

I'd like to see Diana in this spot. I see her as a hard-engage, sustained damage AP champion. Her shield should be a very short duration and perhaps even exchanging places with her current passive. Her Moonsilver Blade could be her new W where the damage scales with ranks with an attack speed active to complement a Nashor's Tooth.

So game-play would be the standard Q-R engage, her passive popping on damage received (or maybe a Q-R consume?), W to boost attack speed for more passive W procs and a second R to escape/disengage. This allows for a) the same play-style as before but she'd no longer "pop" someone and be able to tank out any damage she receives; and b) it opens up counter play to CC her in some fashion (knockup/stun/slow/etc).

It also complements items she's already be buying: Nashor's, Zhonya's, boots. She could also look now at getting a Lichbane and a Deathcap. A Hextech Gunblade may also be attractive to her (as Bloodthirster would be to an AD carry) if she wanted more sustain since the spellvamp would proc off her Q-R and the lifesteal would proc off her attack speed/W-passive.

I like that this would open up a lot of counter play but also not remove what she's good at. I feel it accentuates what she is: a beautiful priestess of the moon who crushes any and all heretics! She is fearless, ruthless and cold.


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shox reb00t

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDiggs View Post
What if you make it so that a second R on the same target does reduced damage? I always envisioned the refresh on the dash as a way to stick to targets, not just burst them down. You should be rewarded for saving the second dash for when the target tries to flash/escape ability away, not for blowing them up before they have a chance.

You could also make the damage ramp up when targeting a different enemy (but only once). Make the ramped up damage near or equivalent to a double dash on the same target (reduced as I suggested above). This Diana players can still initiate on targets they can reach, and not feel punished when they then chain R onto the carry.
You want to make her weaker? Wtf is wrong with you?

Seriously. What the **** is the point of this suggestion? You offered 0 trade offs for reduced second dash damage.

Play the dam champion first a few games before coming in and trying to suggest retarded ways of 'balancing'.