Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Alorasence

Senior Member

02-01-2014

One thing that frustrates and depresses me now that Diana has been discussed, is that she now has exaclty 0 hope of getting buffed. I simply and unapologetically disagree that she is unhealthy for the game, but since that isn't the barking masses opinion, she is now on a crash coarse with a a partial ability rework.

And that is going to take forever. And it will be a year before she is just plain "good".

A small ratio buff on her q and a quality of life change to her passive could have had her viable by next patch. But no. She'll get attention a year from now. And come 2015 we'll all be thrilled that finally. Finally. She'll be a normal, repetetive, auto attack based, tanky, initiating, bruiser.

Excellent.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Vesh is saying he wants one build path essentially. And kit identity does somewhat influence viability. Obviously if numbers are trash no amount of well constructed theming can salvage it but look at Thresh due to his theming his kit is very viable and has many strkng points. Look at Blitz because of his theme and being older he essentially has one strong skill. Well two. His ilt can be beast.

One of the goals should be to maintain theming of the character and not just make it cookie cutter. Name five champions with strong initiates. Actually name champs with strong initates until you run out of them and then tell me we need more of that in League. I get you are on that AP melee DPS train for a reason I will never understand but she is going to be turned into an initiate champion of they make her a fighter and if you have played current Diana you would know that won't be nearly as satisfying as the current crusader.
I'd like to stress your use of the word "current". People making the argument of turning her into a fighter or bruiser or engage tank, are not living in reality. DIANA ALREADY EXISTS! She ISN'T a tanky, bruiser, initiator! I don't care what people WANT her to be. If you want a bruiser, go play one. But don't try to turn my agressive, relentless, assassinesque, "crusader", into one.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
I'd like to stress your use of the word "current". People making the argument of turning her into a fighter or bruiser or engage tank, are not living in reality. DIANA ALREADY EXISTS! She ISN'T a tanky, bruiser, initiator! I don't care what people WANT her to be. If you want a bruiser, go play one. But don't try to turn my agressive, relentless, assassinesque, "crusader", into one.
Amen fellow Moon Brother


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Gimily

Junior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
I'd like to stress your use of the word "current". People making the argument of turning her into a fighter or bruiser or engage tank, are not living in reality. DIANA ALREADY EXISTS! She ISN'T a tanky, bruiser, initiator! I don't care what people WANT her to be. If you want a bruiser, go play one. But don't try to turn my agressive, relentless, assassinesque, "crusader", into one.
exactly, for the diana mains that have been playing her as an assassin since release, forcing her to become a bruiser will pretty much say, yo u massive group of people ur main champ is gone here is a new one that looks and sounds like her, but u have to build her way different and play way different, and have different skills, hope ur happy!!

That just flat out doesnt make sense, so lets just not do that pls.

If you want to get rid of the toxic parts of diana's assassinate, like the supposed no counter-play arguments than change that and shift her power else ware, or make previsions to prevent her from QRR or something but dont take her main play style away from the people that have been playing her forever.


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Neo Cyrus

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Nothing about her as an assassin is toxic, people just like to whine when they suck. Much like all the whining about Riven until she got gutted as well.

"Oh no a champion is not ultra high skill cap and has gap closers, whaaa".
"BjergerKing and Faker used Riven it must be fine after being nerfed through the ground!"

Sometimes I think the balance team throw darts at a board to decide what they're going to do next.

The last person to call it toxic that I encountered stayed in lane right in my face farming with 200HP. No **** I'm going to 1 combo kill you. They throw around "toxic" and "anti-fun" about ANY champion they don't like. Of course dying is not fun, stop being bad. Sometimes I wish this game was more brutal and unforgiving like DotA, that would dumpster all those players into the equivalent of under 100 Elo permanently and I would have a good laugh.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Cyrus View Post
Nothing about her as an assassin is toxic, people just like to whine when they suck. Much like all the whining about Riven until she got gutted as well.

"Oh no a champion is not ultra high skill cap and has gap closers, whaaa".
"BjergerKing and Faker used Riven it must be fine after being nerfed through the ground!"

Sometimes I think the balance team throw darts at a board to decide what they're going to do next.

The last person to call it toxic that I encountered stayed in lane right in my face farming with 200HP. No **** I'm going to 1 combo kill you. They throw around "toxic" and "anti-fun" about ANY champion they don't like. Of course dying is not fun, stop being bad. Sometimes I wish this game was more brutal and unforgiving like DotA, that would dumpster all those players into the equivalent of under 100 Elo permanently and I would have a good laugh.
preach! So sick of there is not enough counterplay when that champion gets ahead. Well no duh if you put in the effort to get ahead by a lot you deserve to be a one v one god for at least part of the game and have increased closing power.


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Gimily

Junior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Cyrus View Post
Nothing about her as an assassin is toxic, people just like to whine when they suck. Much like all the whining about Riven until she got gutted as well.

"Oh no a champion is not ultra high skill cap and has gap closers, whaaa".
"BjergerKing and Faker used Riven it must be fine after being nerfed through the ground!"

Sometimes I think the balance team throw darts at a board to decide what they're going to do next.

The last person to call it toxic that I encountered stayed in lane right in my face farming with 200HP. No **** I'm going to 1 combo kill you. They throw around "toxic" and "anti-fun" about ANY champion they don't like. Of course dying is not fun, stop being bad. Sometimes I wish this game was more brutal and unforgiving like DotA, that would dumpster all those players into the equivalent of under 100 Elo permanently and I would have a good laugh.
I totally agree, I dont think anything is toxic about her. MY post was just about the fact that even if riot or other players think she is toxic or anti fun so be it, like they can be whiney about it, but if they require changes to happen then at the very least keep her current play style an assassin that cans tick to carries like glue,.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

02-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimily View Post
exactly, for the diana mains that have been playing her as an assassin since release, forcing her to become a bruiser will pretty much say, yo u massive group of people ur main champ is gone here is a new one that looks and sounds like her, but u have to build her way different and play way different, and have different skills, hope ur happy!!

That just flat out doesnt make sense, so lets just not do that pls.

If you want to get rid of the toxic parts of diana's assassinate, like the supposed no counter-play arguments than change that and shift her power else ware, or make previsions to prevent her from QRR or something but dont take her main play style away from the people that have been playing her forever.

QRR is certainly considered the part of her kit that is unhealthy so let's talk about it.

The reason it is considered abusive is because it is a targeted ability that cannot be dodged. Once she lands her Q, she can fire her ultimate into you, and then immedietly do it again, to burst her target pretty far down.

That is the only reason. Seriously. That is it.


Now lets talk about the drawbacks to a move like that.

First, it costs an enormous amount of mana. Diana has a notoriously low mana pool and very high mana costs, specifically on her w. Her full combo uses nearly half of her entire mana pool.(this is also one of the reasons people shy away from getting her E until later in the game. 70 mana is a tremendous amount of mana to spend on an ability that doesn't actually do damage)

Second, it leaves her ultimate on cooldown. If you decide to QRR your lane opponent, or if you decide to QRR a squishy in a team fight, you are left in the middle of said team, without your mobility tool. Not smart. A good way to die.

Now the reason I said that is to highlight how uncommon it actually is for competent Diana players to use this combo. It is, generally speaking, not a good idea to blindly QRR a target. Unless you can guarantee a kill on a priority target, it usually isn't worth doing. Especially on mid laners or carrys who might have escapes (a lot of them).


For those reasons, I do not think of her QRR combo as either a "core part of her design" or as unhealthy. You can do it, sure. But there are appropriate drawbacks to doing this.



I am not going to bother suggesting changes. There is plenty of that. But I want her problems to be clear and I want possible changes to address those problems.


She has a terrible pre-six because of her painful mana costs and lack of sustain.

She has a hard time controling her wave. She can't just cs like other champions can. She either has to shove it really hard or try to clip off low health creeps with crescent strike (remember the mana costs?). This is because her passive auotmatically pushes the wave along with the activation of her shield (which is mandatory unless you'd like to take the damage of standing in the creep wave while your opponent spams autos and spells on you). Most melee champions can attack the lane creeps with descent sustain because of lifesteal. Obviously Diana does not have lifesteal.


This creep control issue is another one of the reasons Diana can't be played top with any safety. Pushing a wave is worse top lane than it is in any other lane. Jungler's feed off of pushed top laners and if you have no escape (Diana) and have low innate tankness (Diana) you are going to die. This is also the reason top lane has become stagnant with tanks....though thats a problem for another day.

Diana has a weak late game. Every single one of her abilities has been nerfed. Her ratios, which often determine a champions late game, are ****. 60% of AP is garbage. 70% of AP is better, but still not great.


TLDR; QRR isn't toxic. It is punishing to the Diana player at an appropriate level as to make it an uncommon combo. Diana needs buffed directly and her buffs should address her weaknesses.

Diana's weaknesses are:

1. Bad pre-six
2. really harsh mana costs
3. Diana is forced to either have the lane shoved to her turret, or to shove the lane to the enemies turret. Her w and passive push it too hard one way. And to pick off creeps one by one with her q costs too much mana. And to walk up and take a creep risks too much harass when she has no lifesteal or other sustain.
4. Her ratios have been overnerfed, and she no longer has an appropriate late game.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

02-02-2014

[QUOTE=Neo Cyrus;44859843]

"The last person to call it toxic that I encountered stayed in lane right in my face farming with 200HP. No **** I'm going to 1 combo kill you."

Seriously. People complain all the time that they got bursted down. I played with a Lux just today who had taken damage from a failed gank 20 seconds before, and started pushing my wave. I got back to turret and gibbed her. She screams "0 counterplay" in chat.....

The counterplay would have been to recall. Or dodge my Q. Or snare me. Or or push the wave with your e, not your forehead.


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Katasumai

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Senior Member

02-02-2014

This is still being talked about???

Edit: Down vote? This wasn't meant as an insult more a surprise as I figured it would of ended soon.