Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
That's just it though. If I am so far ahead that I can R to you and just use W and Q to kill you at point blank you would be getting stomped that game anyway. As a Diana player I can honestly say I will not go in without Q and it being on cooldown us hell time. People are just easily psyched out by her. I have a friend who literally says if a Diana misses her Q he is just going tj go kill her now. There is counter play. It is just more skill reliant than build X which is a good thing as far as game play strategy and the like go.

If Riot let Teemo have the amount of power he has now and had to Eve Eve again because they screwed up I think we can all agree that they aren't always right about what is toxic.
Im starting to think Diana is the new Irelia. Just someone new to pick on and abuse while causing controversy and pissing off the community.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantNooblord View Post
That isn't you outplaying them.
If they fall for a bait, they are the ones missplaying. That's how one throws games.
so utilizing strategy and capitalizing on your opponents weakness as a player isn't outplaying? What do you think counts then? If Ibam on Orianna and low on health and the enemy Ashe comes at me and I put the ball behind ber and pop hourglass and then the minute I come out of glass activate protect and then use attack to dissonance TN kill her that is an outplay. I vaited with hourglass and cleaned up afterwards. If baiting is not outplaying then what is? Are you saying kiting is outplaying? It kind of sounds like no matter what you think a one v one should be a tossup which would be beyond toxic and make this game really boring.


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GiantNooblord

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
That's just it though. If I am so far ahead that I can R to you and just use W and Q to kill you at point blank you would be getting stomped that game anyway. As a Diana player I can honestly say I will not go in without Q and it being on cooldown us hell time. People are just easily psyched out by her. I have a friend who literally says if a Diana misses her Q he is just going tj go kill her now. There is counter play. It is just more skill reliant than build X which is a good thing as far as game play strategy and the like go.

If Riot let Teemo have the amount of power he has now and had to Eve Eve again because they screwed up I think we can all agree that they aren't always right about what is toxic.
She isn't that monster right now because she was intentionally undertuned.
If she rises to a competitive contested spot, she will kill you with the R-Q-W anytime she is ahead. (you can't dodge her Q if she is in your face while you are being knocked up).

Eve and Teemo are examples of Riot daring to change core elements of the game such as vision.
A problem that they knew would happen but that was a needed evil in order to explore that area.


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GiantNooblord

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
so utilizing strategy and capitalizing on your opponents weakness as a player isn't outplaying? What do you think counts then? If Ibam on Orianna and low on health and the enemy Ashe comes at me and I put the ball behind ber and pop hourglass and then the minute I come out of glass activate protect and then use attack to dissonance TN kill her that is an outplay. I vaited with hourglass and cleaned up afterwards. If baiting is not outplaying then what is? Are you saying kiting is outplaying? It kind of sounds like no matter what you think a one v one should be a tossup which would be beyond toxic and make this game really boring.
Outplaying is evading skill shots, juking people, using CC at the most critical moment, baiting abilities mid fight, kiting using perfect mechanichs.

Baiting to a bad fight is pre-combat strategy.
Outplay happens in-combat, just like your orianna example.


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DarknessCalls1

Senior Member

02-01-2014

I have a thought on something you can test on her to see if it effectively converst her to a fighter type champion.

I'd say lower some of her ratios, raise some CDs on her abilities and then make every third AA lower her CDs. This would be similar to Skarner or Shyv in that they're encouraged to AA whether it's just champs or minions. I'd also add a bit to her shield because her play would be more focused on staying alive for a long time in fights.

Obviously would need some tweaking but I think this would feel very rewarding (and this is from someone who plays Diana quite a bit). I feel like she'd play a bit like Lee Sin, hop on someone and stick to them.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantNooblord View Post
She isn't that monster right now because she was intentionally undertuned.
If she rises to a competitive contested spot, she will kill you with the R-Q-W anytime she is ahead. (you can't dodge her Q if she is in your face while you are being knocked up).

Eve and Teemo are examples of Riot daring to change core elements of the game such as vision.
A problem that they knew would happen but that was a needed evil in order to explore that area.
She wasn't a problem before the last set of nerfs though. She saw play but wasn't really abused.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantNooblord View Post
Outplaying is evading skill shots, juking people, using CC at the most critical moment, baiting abilities mid fight, kiting using perfect mechanichs.

Baiting to a bad fight is pre-combat strategy.
Outplay happens in-combat, just like your orianna example.
So me landing skill ****s doesn't count as outplaying them butbthem dodgeing them does? Two of her skills are melee range sorry you can't dodge a self range spell? And again someone like wukong cam use appropriate burst and decoy to outplay Diana and she fan bait out the clone before going in. Her role is to kill the back line. Are you saying she should be bad at her job to satisfy your iutplay conditions? How is taking all of her damage and making it auto attack based essentially healthy for HER as a champion. You are too focuses on receiving end and not enough on the person playing the champion. For the record even if she gets to the back line as a bruiser if she can't kill the adc in 3 seconds then he is just going to crit her to death anyways so what would be the point?


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GiantNooblord

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
So me landing skill ****s doesn't count as outplaying them butbthem dodgeing them does? Two of her skills are melee range sorry you can't dodge a self range spell? And again someone like wukong cam use appropriate burst and decoy to outplay Diana and she fan bait out the clone before going in. Her role is to kill the back line. Are you saying she should be bad at her job to satisfy your iutplay conditions? How is taking all of her damage and making it auto attack based essentially healthy for HER as a champion. You are too focuses on receiving end and not enough on the person playing the champion. For the record even if she gets to the back line as a bruiser if she can't kill the adc in 3 seconds then he is just going to crit her to death anyways so what would be the point?
Sigh. It's like if you are reading only what you want.
I already said that her Q-R is fine, and it offers good gameplay.

However, if she is ahead enough, her combo can be unavoidable and doesn't offer enough counterplay aside of staying out of range of her R.

Making her a bruiser could solve that issue.
Making her a better assassin with better ratios would unleash that evil.

Maybe there are alternatives like Q adding a mark that detonates with R for more damage (and having less damage with R'ing without Q). But we would still have the problem that her shield will make her very durable for an assassin, so it would have to go if they follow that route.
If she turns into an assasin, we'll just get Akali 2.0 (with shield instead of spellvamp, and whithout her stealth).


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Quartzmonkey

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Leave her alone.


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Gimily

Junior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantNooblord View Post
You gave the answer on your own post.
Low cooldowns. Let the main damage ability be on a low cooldown. This is the reason Cassiopeia/Karthus have lategame damage comparable to ADC's. Their abilities are on a cooldown similar to autoattacks, but instead of scaling off critical chance, they scale with more targets (teamfight AoE madness).

Now, that's not the main topic of this discussion, but I definitely think that there is design space on AP sustained damage (DPS), and it is very different from AP burst damage both gameplay wise and lore wise.
Yes i know, but im saying eve/ryze level low cooldowns, even 4 abilities withi 5 second cooldowns isn't enough, in order for diana to be that she would have to completely change, almost every skill, think about it cass-twin fang is like 1 second cooldown,. karthus has W and skittles, etc. but those are about 1-2 second cooldowns, not just low cooldowns but extremely low, and they were built around that. diana would be a completely new champion with all new skills that were completely different from her old ones for this to make the slightest amount of sense. That is not what they want to do, they want to make slight ajusments