Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Hitokiri Hokosai

Senior Member

01-31-2014

@Vesh As a Diana main for a long time, and with hundreds of Diana games played over my time in this game, I don't see the problems with tankiness in Diana's kit. Even in late game, unless I'm Hyper fed, the shield doesn't really give me extreme tankiness, but just a little during the fight that may or may not be enough.To me, saying that she has no way out isn't always true, like with other champions, if there is an enemy minion wave, you can r back out of a fight after comboing in. Now with mechanics wise, why not make her r have the ability to target ally champions, but have different requirements to go on cool down for the full duration. this would give her an escape mechanic to let her feel assassin like in that respect that you want them to be in. get in get out.I for one, don't think shes a problem, or there are problems bigger than her that could be addressed but, It looks like shes being changed to a fighter whether I like it or not. personally I'd prefer her to be an assassin, and I think It fits her theme better that a sustained DPS Fighter. She's branded a traitor, who worships a symbol of the NIGHT, and hunts her target down killing them quickly. What about that doesn't scream assassin? I don't know, but she doesn't and never did seem like a fighter to me, and I'd rather not have her be changed. I feel that dodging her q is really not that hard, and its not really THAT reliable. Its like any other skill shot. you can dodge it, so then she doesn't get her r reset. I think that the carry feeling helpless after a q is landed is fine, because its a form of punishment for not respecting an assassins ways to kill you. Its like being an adc and walking in ult range for a zed, or being in front for a Kassadin to combo. And Seeing as she, with out either A: bieng hyper fed, or B: Having a Zhonyas, she needs the tiny amount of tankiness she gets from w to live in fights. either way, with or without w she gets ripped up late game no matter what, if shes not hyper fed.I view her teamfight combo like Kassadin. Q > W > R > E > Zhonyas > Q? > R. An initiator of sorts. Her combo feels fun, and even rewarding, to use, and is a high risk reward mechanic. You have to gauge whether you, as an assassin, have the ability to assassinate said carry. And even then, unless you are fed out the wazoo, or its super late game, are unlikely to fully do. Which makes you reliant on team follow up, or in some cases, other means of initiation besides your self. And also, you can build Diana as a DPS fighter if you want, and have it turn out fine, its just what you prefer. As a person who has played a fair amount of Diana, and also a fair amount against Diana, as carries, not once did I feel it unfair that I failed to dodge, or kite, or respect the range of Diana when she was strong. As an assassin she has to get through the front line to me, the target. If I'm that far up that I am getting hit by the Q and getting one shot that is my fault as the carry for mispositioning my self. There is a fair amount of counter play to her, and I feel people complaining about unfair mechanics is unjustified. I'm also not sure what you mean by her Q being "too reliable" it's a skill shot, no? It has a smaller range than a lot of other skill shots, as well as a predictable trajectory. Also, her entire kit revolves around it, so I would hope that its fairly reliable. Also, her ability to gap close is severely decreased when she loses reset on her r, and hard cc is also a good way to get her off of you. To me, I feel she is right where she belongs, albeit she is underplayed, I think that state of Diana is in a more stable and balanced place than a lot of assassins at the moment. That's my opinion anyways, And I'd like to discuss this further.


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Vonleo

Junior Member

01-31-2014

bump


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I imagine a more fighter-type Diana to build Zhonyas and Nashor's tooth, jump into a fight, moonfall, de-aggro with zhonyas, and then come out of it and wake on squishy's with her passive until they die all while staying alive with a more defensive-centric shield.
Vesh, I want to deconstruct this a bit from the perspective of mechanical interaction in League:

So first, you're saying her 'de-aggro' tool is Zhonya's Hourglass. That means she has to build it.
If her teamfight kit doesn't work without Zhonya's, she's going to feel really bad before she has this item, and when it's on cooldown.
It restricts player interaction with her to "I have to rush Zhonya's or fail".

Second, you're saying she's going to come out of Zhonya's and start hitting a squishy.
What does squishy mean, though? Squishy means "Caitlyn".
Remember now that Zhonya's has the hidden text of "stuns your champion for 2.5 seconds".
So what actually happens when Diana goes in is that she applies a 2 second slow and stuns herself.
Caitlyn now isn't surprised. Jinx isn't surprised. They know Diana's there.
And they've laid traps, put their fingers on CC/flash, and backed away.

No one is around for Diana to continue her melee range progression.

Who does Zhonya's initiation work on? Lissandra. Why? Because Lissandra is ranged, has the ability to deploy two Zhonya's, and perhaps has more CC than most supports.

And she still tends to be not as good at it as tanks.

Does Diana have two Zhonya's and a ton of CC? No? Then in reality she's perhaps just giving enemies 2.5 seconds to savor her death.

"What about team follow up?"

Yes, your team can follow up. But since you're not a tank, they have to worry about you dying. Which means their follow up needs to be much faster and much more powerful because after Zhonya's Hourglass wears off, if they didn't absolutely prevent every nuke and disable, "initiation" may turn into "suicide for distraction".

In order to be an actual fighter who builds offensive items and goes in first, she needs absolutely titanic defensive abilities.

Because make no mistake, Riven isn't a fighter: She's a tanky assassin, and her only goal is to Wind Slash Caitlyn instantly after stunning her.


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jewishwookie96

Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I imagine a more fighter-type Diana to build Zhonyas and Nashor's tooth, jump into a fight, moonfall, de-aggro with zhonyas, and then come out of it and wake on squishy's with her passive until they die all while staying alive with a more defensive-centric shield.

Diana should still want to be a back-line fighter (after all, if you give her the tools to jump to the carry she will do it regardless). She will still want to be on the softer targets. I don't think "tank killed" is what she wants to be or what she should be, I just think there are better ways to accomplice her goals than press QRR and one shot someone if she's ahead.
What about reducing the cd on her moonfall procked ult by 6 seconds or something. This might make some dianas to build more tanky and also not just headrush and kill some champs and this will keep the chase potential and her ability to stick to someone after her initial cooldowns


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Marcopolo69

Junior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Graves III View Post
I don't normally comment, but as a player who likes current Diana, can I throw something out there?

I like Diana's ability to tear through squishies, and I actually like that when confronted with a frontline bruiser type fighter like renek or nasus she bites it.

Diana's crowning moment was wiping out a room full of old men in robes.
I feel diana should have incredible sticking power against squishies, able to hunt down supports, mages, marksman, and other assassins effectively in exchange for toe to toe strength.

I feel its fair, thematic, and right that diana can't get into throw down drag out duels with Jax, Olaf, Irelia, Riven, or Trundle and the like.

Diana doesn't seem like a trained warrior, she gets by on passion and self-righteousness. She spends her off-hours tearing through lightly armored foes who likely do a great deal of time running from her.

This i don't understand why Vesh is so adamant that she must be a fighter. Her lore screams assassin to me. Just look at her armor its not meant to be taking hits from Olaf its got breaks in it for smooth movements so she can assassinate with out restrictions.

The only changes i would remotely be okay with would be moving either the ratio or base health off the shield and putting it into the damage part and them maybe taking some base health or health per level off so that she could have better base attack speed so that if people wanted to they could build her with a nashors and get better use out of it.

I have been playing Dina since release and through every nerf and change.I would hate to see this champ ruined by your random need to make her a fighter i just cant see it working

@vesh please take a look at how the other side sees it we don't want this fighter change the QRR fits and has counter play all the person has to do is dodge the skill shot


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Gospel Noctis

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vesh, I want to deconstruct this a bit from the perspective of mechanical interaction in League:

So first, you're saying her 'de-aggro' tool is Zhonya's Hourglass. That means she has to build it.
If her teamfight kit doesn't work without Zhonya's, she's going to feel really bad before she has this item, and when it's on cooldown.
It restricts player interaction with her to "I have to rush Zhonya's or fail".

Second, you're saying she's going to come out of Zhonya's and start hitting a squishy.
What does squishy mean, though? Squishy means "Caitlyn".
Remember now that Zhonya's has the hidden text of "stuns your champion for 2.5 seconds".
So what actually happens when Diana goes in is that she applies a 2 second slow and stuns herself.
Caitlyn now isn't surprised. Jinx isn't surprised. They know Diana's there.
And they've laid traps, put their fingers on CC/flash, and backed away.

No one is around for Diana to continue her melee range progression.

Who does Zhonya's initiation work on? Lissandra. Why? Because Lissandra is ranged, has the ability to deploy two Zhonya's, and perhaps has more CC than most supports.

And she still tends to be not as good at it as tanks.

Does Diana have two Zhonya's and a ton of CC? No? Then in reality she's perhaps just giving enemies 2.5 seconds to savor her death.

"What about team follow up?"

Yes, your team can follow up. But since you're not a tank, they have to worry about you dying. Which means their follow up needs to be much faster and much more powerful because after Zhonya's Hourglass wears off, if they didn't absolutely prevent every nuke and disable, "initiation" may turn into "suicide for distraction".

In order to be an actual fighter who builds offensive items and goes in first, she needs absolutely titanic defensive abilities.

Because make no mistake, Riven isn't a fighter: She's a tanky assassin, and her only goal is to Wind Slash Caitlyn instantly after stunning her.
Pretty much this.


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vesh, I want to deconstruct this a bit from the perspective of mechanical interaction in League:

So first, you're saying her 'de-aggro' tool is Zhonya's Hourglass. That means she has to build it.
If her teamfight kit doesn't work without Zhonya's, she's going to feel really bad before she has this item, and when it's on cooldown.
It restricts player interaction with her to "I have to rush Zhonya's or fail".

Second, you're saying she's going to come out of Zhonya's and start hitting a squishy.
What does squishy mean, though? Squishy means "Caitlyn".
Remember now that Zhonya's has the hidden text of "stuns your champion for 2.5 seconds".
So what actually happens when Diana goes in is that she applies a 2 second slow and stuns herself.
Caitlyn now isn't surprised. Jinx isn't surprised. They know Diana's there.
And they've laid traps, put their fingers on CC/flash, and backed away.

No one is around for Diana to continue her melee range progression.

Who does Zhonya's initiation work on? Lissandra. Why? Because Lissandra is ranged, has the ability to deploy two Zhonya's, and perhaps has more CC than most supports.

And she still tends to be not as good at it as tanks.

Does Diana have two Zhonya's and a ton of CC? No? Then in reality she's perhaps just giving enemies 2.5 seconds to savor her death.

"What about team follow up?"

Yes, your team can follow up. But since you're not a tank, they have to worry about you dying. Which means their follow up needs to be much faster and much more powerful because after Zhonya's Hourglass wears off, if they didn't absolutely prevent every nuke and disable, "initiation" may turn into "suicide for distraction".

In order to be an actual fighter who builds offensive items and goes in first, she needs absolutely titanic defensive abilities.

Because make no mistake, Riven isn't a fighter: She's a tanky assassin, and her only goal is to Wind Slash Caitlyn instantly after stunning her.
@Vesh - pretty much this


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Merciless Jesus

Junior Member

01-31-2014

Please don't make Diana a fighter...


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

01-31-2014

@Vesh - there is no way any of us will accept the removing of Q-R-R combo.


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Moons

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I imagine a more fighter-type Diana to build Zhonyas and Nashor's tooth, jump into a fight, moonfall, de-aggro with zhonyas, and then come out of it and then use her second ult to jump on squishies and hit them with her passive + basic spells until they die all while staying alive with a more defensive-centric shield.
I agree then. Make her shield more defense like and her Q more of a mobility move than damage. I could live with Diana having all her damage in passive and ulti, if there was a compensation in mobility and survivability

But I cant imagine how you would do that without upseting a fair number of assasin Diana players. I suppose you should still give us a choice.