Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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ZallKlos

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I already have Dark Valkyrie, should I buy Lunar Goddess? I just don't like having 2 skins for a champion. But the skin...


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZallKlos View Post
I already have Dark Valkyrie, should I buy Lunar Goddess? I just don't like having 2 skins for a champion. But the skin...
I am gonna do it.


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ArmySquirrel

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
That's what I'm saying.

Diana was considered a design masterpiece for a very long time. Literally within the last few months, people have decided she has no counterplay. I retain that she is one of the most well designed champions in this game.

She is slightly undertuned. There is a medium between what she was and what she is. That medium is where I want her to be.

Think of all the horrendously toxic designs and champions in this game. Ones Morello himself has referrred to as poorly designed. Does Diana really belong in the Akali, Talon, Irelia, Kassadin, camp?

I'm just saying, that if Rioters really are aiming to crack down at "counterplay" issues in the game, Diana shouldn't even be on a list like that. There are bigger fish to fry.
I do believe she is not a dire case, but I figure if changes are warranted they would be fairly small and more likely to see the light of day in a reasonable amount of time. Some of the dire cases you mention aren't unlikely to have half of their abilities replaced with something completely different.

What I'm seeing is that there is a camp difference on this. Some people want to see AP Fighter Diana, some want to see Assassin Diana. Me personally I feel like Assassin Diana is the only way to go right now, but I actually want AP Fighter Diana. I don't know how others might feel about this. -Maybe- she could be tweaked such that she could potentially do either one or the other through itemization, but not both. I'm not sure how though. Most of the ideas I've had seem like they'd lead to the same old problem where by late game she basically does both.


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Pandaris

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmySquirrel View Post
A smart Diana will save the refreshed ult for when the ADC inevitably uses their escape, rather than blow it immediately. The only exception is if the refreshed ult will kill the ADC.



It's a concept thing, that's why the ongoing wish to see her as an AP fighter. There are a number of posts from IronStylus on this. She is envisioned on something of a martyr type, and has no standard escape or de-aggro because she goes down fighting. It is also meant to mirror Leona's own lack of a true escape, and make them both all-in.

I feel she should be an AP fighter as well, but I do see that it could be a bit more work. She just needs to have less up front damage somehow, but doing so does create some conundrums. Basically the only way to really do it with her current kit is to move a fair chunk of power into her passive to entice sustained attack rather than instant burst.
I meant use your escape to get out of ulti range (lower than max q range)

And as for her kit it literally cannot be buffed and see fair play, like i said i love her and all but it has too much


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Lordnewb

Senior Member

01-30-2014

@Vesh

You were talking about abuse cases concerning Diana's AP scaling shield and a DFG on someone like Malphite, where he is penalized on his survivability should he go straight AP, and where Diana actually gains survivability from straight AP. My beef with your point here is that Riven follows this similar play pattern.

To quote you:
"I explained in an earlier post that a core defining feature of a good assassin is having a way "out" if they succeed. Diana has an all in pattern where she either dies or gets the kill. If she lives past that point it's because shes impossible to kill with her W up, not because she did anything skillfull to juke the enemy team or escape in a way that's interactive."

Riven has a way out, but she is abusive in the same way that you just described Diana. Riven has an all-in pattern where she either dies or gets the kill, and if she lives past that point, it's because shes impossible to kill with her target-free mobility and her AD scaling shield, not because she did anything skillful to escape in a way that's interactive.

You also go on to say:
"Should Malphite be having an identity crisis because you can build DFG on him and literally remove anyone without MR from the map whenever you want?"

Riven literally removes anyone without armor from the map whenever she wants.

I'm not saying that you have made bad points Vesh. Rather, what I am saying is that we should be consistent in our line of thinking here. Why do we punish Diana for her current state as a fighter/mage but it is acceptable for Riven to be a fighter/assassin? If we punish Diana for this pattern of play, why don't we punish Riven in the same way?


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordnewb View Post
@Vesh

You were talking about abuse cases concerning Diana's AP scaling shield and a DFG on someone like Malphite, where he actually is not penalized on his survivability should he go straight AP, whereas Diana actually does gain survivability from straight AP. My beef with your point here is that Riven follows this similar play pattern.

To quote you:
"I explained in an earlier post that a core defining feature of a good assassin is having a way "out" if they succeed. Diana has an all in pattern where she either dies or gets the kill. If she lives past that point it's because shes impossible to kill with her W up, not because she did anything skillfull to juke the enemy team or escape in a way that's interactive."

Riven has a way out, but she is abusive in the same way that you just described Diana. Riven has an all-in pattern where she either dies or gets the kill, and if she lives past that point, it's because shes impossible to kill with her target-free mobility and her AD scaling shield, not because she did anything skillful to escape in a way that's interactive.

You also go on to say:
"Should Malphite be having an identity crisis because you can build DFG on him and literally remove anyone without MR from the map whenever you want?"

Riven literally removes anyone without armor from the map whenever she wants.

I'm not saying that you have made bad points Vesh. Rather, what I am saying is that we should be consistent in our line of thinking here. Why do we punish Diana for her current state as a fighter/mage but it is acceptable for Riven to be a fighter/assassin? Just saying we should be consistent here is all.
That is exactly what i wanted to tell him as well. Why punish Diana for having AP shield when Riven has AD scaling shield. To me it seems he is very ignorant to the fact what we want done to Diana. Guess he works for Mrorello after all so nothing new about it.


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ArmySquirrel

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandaris View Post
I meant use your escape to get out of ulti range (lower than max q range)

And as for her kit it literally cannot be buffed and see fair play, like i said i love her and all but it has too much
It's barely shorter than Q range, it's still an 825 range dash, there aren't many champions that can get that far away, not without blowing Flash. I mean unless you're talking about blowing escapes before she gets her first dash off, but the trouble with that is that Diana can fire off the ult before the Q even lands and still get the refresh, as long as the Q does actually land.

I do agree the kit can't be flat buffed without returning to the OP ways. Diana can still snowball pretty hard. The fact is that her kit is basically an Assassin with no escape compensated by the ability to stick around and fight in a useful fashion. Conceptually that's kinda neat, but practically the ability to destroy the enemy's primary damage and then start killing everyone else is a bit OP. As it stands she just floats in awkward land right now because with everything scaling off AP she either does both or she does neither, and her numbers right now are such that she either snowballs ahead, or fails pretty hard.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I'd just like to remind everyone that these "abuse" cases, are extremely esoteric. Elaborate wording about toxicity can only make an argument go so far.

The fact of the matter is, that Diana is fun. So is Riven. And so is Akali. And, truth be told, dying is never fun, no matter how it happens.

Riot has often used the Morgana Dark Binding as an example of a really well designed skill. And it is. But getting hit by it, and dying from her all in ultimate, feels just as bad, and just as frustrating, as getting dove by Diana.

This is a videogame. Dying is supposed to feel bad.


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ArmySquirrel

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans1ing View Post
Why punish Diana for having AP shield when Riven has AD scaling shield.
This is a bit of a difficult question to answer and may be nuanced. Or it could be that Riven shouldn't have an AD scaling shield. There are some similarities between Riven and Diana though in that both have frequently seen nerfs. I don't know Riven as well as I know Diana, but I will say that I think Diana's AP scaling shield is fine as long as it's on an AP Fighter Diana. As long as she has the up front burst to delete a target and then continues to be tanky while wailing on the rest of the opposing team with her passive, she'll be too much. It's just a question of what things need to be flipped to achieve the desired result, or if she even needs anything changed.

But I don't think we're going to see any buffs to her without a power trade somewhere.


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Until Diana gets fixed I'll be listening to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeuFnVGIhTo
Feel free to join me!