Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

01-30-2014

So Vesh what exactly is your guys plan for her then? How are you going to change her into something more fun while keep her thematically friendly? Do you have any ideas you wish to incorporate?


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Asatorrr

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
OP here, I started and season 3 and wasn't around during her OP days I have just always felt that assassin Diana was the best Diana. She never felt like someone Inshould be trying to be this tanky threat with. In all honesty three of her skills are about you not escaping her rampaging justice and her killing you because you are in denial. So Ibwant that feeling to stay. I don't think a dps bruiser Diana would have wiped out a monastery of the Solari. Especially if you consider the sunlight people to be about that tank and cc life then she definitely would have been just burst killing people and moving from room to room. I am aware that the champions probably from a lore standpoint are not as limited action wise but I feel the imagery will help you understand my point.
In her release days, and honestly for a long time after that, pretty much as long as she's been considered viable, Diana was a threat in general. If you built a rylai's you got some extra health to let you dive more than 1-2 people and wipe them out before you would die, if you would even die. I'm not saying make her a tank, she's a damage dealer, I just think her kit is pretty shoddy for an assassin and champs like Zed and Fizz have much better kits.

You can't just cite your interpretation of the lore and say "see, she's an assassin!" We have no idea how she wiped out the monastery of the Solari. Actually, she was imprisoned, she was about to be executed and shattered her bindings. That to me says physical strength, not nimble and decisive movements. Just because Leona is a tanky CC machine doesn't mean all Solari are tanky CC machine enthusiasts. If they were, how did she burst them down?

By my reading and logic, Diana isn't an assassin. Also, this whole notion that Diana lacks a survival instinct or is completely apathetic doesn't really make sense with the lore either. She was about to be executed and broke her chains to kill the Solari. If she wanted to die, she'd have done so then and there.


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Starflyt

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I think there's been a misunderstanding. I was talking about the damage on R being gated by having a moonlight on the target being a possible way to reduce burst damage from Q->R->R.

In no way was I suggesting she should only be able to R to people with moonlight on them.
Okay, I straight up logged in just to comment on this, and I'll make it short and sweet because I know you don't have a lot of time to read all the posts.

Diana right now needs neither buffs nor nerfs. If you modify her Q-R you will ruin all her teamfight potential, ever. Her burst potential is exactly what makes her a real contender in the game, and also sets a high skill cap. She's only a hidden gem right now because she's more difficult to play correctly, so people don't understand her. And honestly, I prefer it that way; the current Diana is one of the mean reasons I play this game. If she gets changed, there is a high chance of me (and all my friends, as she's a group favorite) just quitting. Her kit synergizes better than anything else in the game, and if you touch her, it will be a karma all over again. Useless. Also, she has weaker game until level 6, so it gives all opponents a perfect chance to shut her down early, but she's one of the most powerful AP carries mid game.
I'm tired of all these people who don't understand her asking for buffs, or nerfs. I've seen both a completely shut down Diana players and Diana pentakills. Changing her mechanics would destroy her feeling. I don't need another of my favorite champions damaged because she's not average. Are we going to nerf Irelia again, too?
Please. Please. PLEASE leave her alone.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asatorrr View Post
In her release days, and honestly for a long time after that, pretty much as long as she's been considered viable, Diana was a threat in general. If you built a rylai's you got some extra health to let you dive more than 1-2 people and wipe them out before you would die, if you would even die. I'm not saying make her a tank, she's a damage dealer, I just think her kit is pretty shoddy for an assassin and champs like Zed and Fizz have much better kits.

You can't just cite your interpretation of the lore and say "see, she's an assassin!" We have no idea how she wiped out the monastery of the Solari. Actually, she was imprisoned, she was about to be executed and shattered her bindings. That to me says physical strength, not nimble and decisive movements. Just because Leona is a tanky CC machine doesn't mean all Solari are tanky CC machine enthusiasts. If they were, how did she burst them down?

By my reading and logic, Diana isn't an assassin.
I'm running out of patience with that side of the argument. If you think she's a tanky fighter...or was EVER designed to be that. Go play her against tanky fighters and see how splendedly she gets mutilated.

You can build all the tank items you want on any chamion your heart desires.

If you go in on a non-squishy during a team fight. You will die. Quickly.

And the argument of "zed is better or fizz is better or derp leblanc derp" ....Yeah. You're right.



That's the point of the thread.


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Starflyt

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
I'm running out of patience with that side of the argument. If you think she's a tanky fighter...or was EVER designed to be that. Go play her against tanky fighters and see how splendedly she gets mutilated.

You can build all the tank items you want on any chamion your heart desires.

If you go in on a non-squishy during a team fight. You will die. Quickly.

And the argument of "zed is better or fizz is better or derp leblanc derp" ....Yeah. You're right.



That's the point of the thread.
Really? That's all completely not true. Diana absolutely wrecks LeBlanc, as in, hardcore counter. Diana VS. Zedd is one of the most even matchups in the game, and she beats Fizz 75% of them time. I've played all of these matchups repeatedly.


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Hyrum Graff

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
I feel like that is the story of a more equal match. But if you apply early map pressure after getting a lane kill or three under your belt then when you go to blow up the enemy carry you should be able to survive after your hourglass if your team is smart enough to go in after you.

At least that's how it usually worked for me when I was doing well. The shield was a part of my burst combo and helped me not drop from a few auto attacks or a speel that flew my way after going in. Afterwards I Zhonya's and then my team cleans up and I help round up the cattle with them.
Let's examine that second sentence: apply early map pressure, after getting kills. Unless you're opponent is bad or has a REALLY weak pre-6 champ, you won't be getting kills pre-6. After getting 1-3 kills, now you're somewhere around level 7 or 9. That's not exactly early map pressure, anymore.

Furthermore, yes, it's true: when Diana is fed, she can 100-0 a squishy and absorb a ton of damage. But I don't think this is a problem. Kat can repeat-ult; Akali keeps getting more ult charges: Any champ (especially a snowbally assassin) is OP if fed. Champs should be balanced if you're on equal footing with your opponent. And I think a suicide bomber Diana is both balanced, and fits her lore.


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Wolféran Maximus

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I would like to thank OP for making this thread.
I'm pleased in seeing Diana being spoken again.
She was quite forgotten in my honest opinion.
I will be waiting patiently for Riot's Balance Team to work on Diana and see what happens afterwards...


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
There's a lot of stuff here, so I'm sorry if I don't respond to each point individually, but here are a couple things to consider:

Saying diana's ability to QRR someone and kill them is bad is, I feel, just wrong. Every assassin does that, just list their combo and say "all you do is X and they die, this is bad" and it sounds the same.

I explained in an earlier post that a core defining feature of a good assassin is having a way "out" if they succeed. Diana has an all in pattern where she either dies or gets the kill. If she lives past that point it's because shes impossible to kill with her W up, not because she did anything skillfull to juke the enemy team or escape in a way that's interactive. This is one of (but not the only) problem with making Diana a straight up assassin. The other problem is that her assassin pattern only has one place of interaction (dodging the Q) and if she hits it she just presses R twice.

Vesh, why do you insist there's something wrong with diana's sheild scaling with AP? Riven exists. The sheild is not a problem, you already nerfed it hard. Building 80 extra AP only gives the shield 48 more health, and that's only on full proc.

An AP shield isn't inherently problematic. It's a problem if she has an assassin pattern though, because it undermines the decisions she has to make. If she builds straight AP, she simultaneously can instant kill someone while also being incredibly tanky -after the fact-. When Diana is ahead there's literally no clear window in which to fight her, especially since the duration of the shield is pretty long when it matters most (when she's already on top of you from a targeted dash).


Should Malphite be having an identity crisis because you can build DFG on him and literally remove anyone without MR from the map whenever you want?

If this becomes the dominant build on Malphite then that's a problem. DFG creates some of this inherently which any champion that has a decent AP ratio + closing power, but with Malphite you are giving up a ton of survivability by going straight AP, whereas Diana doesn't have this weakness. Going straight AP on Diana still allows her to be even more tanky. Consider aslso that Diana frequently builds abyssal and zhonyas, which give her added armor and MR on that shield which is scaling with AP.

Anyway, to reiterate, it's probably ok for her to have an AP scaling shield as long as she isn't jumping on people, one shotting them, and then being tanky afterwards. A big consideration here is what type of items we want Diana to be building. If the shield scaled off health, she would be building items such as sunfire, haunting guise, rylais, etc. These are probably a lot less cool on her than items such as Nashor's Tooth and Zhonya's Hourglass which feel really good on her.
Ok this is slightly a contradiction in that you seem to desire to push her to that sun fire cape route but are admitting it is not her. Maybe I am just not understanding you. I also don't get why it is bad to 100-0 and have a chance at survival outside of leaving the fight.

Part of counterplay is strategy which means if my enemy sees me throwing crescent strikes out they should probably know where I am gonna go AKA the priority target. This game revolves around strategy and that is the cool thing about assassins. It actually makes both teams pay more attention. If Zed goes in solo and his team does not commit with him at all then he is not gonna get the kill at all and if he does it was because he was already very far ahead. Being ahead on a champion is not a good to tk nerd them. A halfway decent Fizz will almost never die thanks to his E which not only gives him movement but also invulnerability. I honestly feel more robbed when an enemy just blinks away (Zed, Ahri, Fizz and Kass) than if they have a shield and they barely live. That way I can calculate my damage better. Shields have more counterplay than escapes when you factor in the variables.

I don't think her shield is as toxic as it sounds. I think the fact that it has visual feedback is what makes it feel that way. Gragas has 18% damage reduction on his W and no one complains about that. Technically a bruiser Gragas is far more viable than a bruiser Diana right now. Give him a Nashor's and Rylai's and he will do it so much better and be just as sticky.

Tldr Diana's shield feels toxic because you can see what you have to get through to kill her but is actually less so because it gives all the information to the enemy. Blinks and dashes that can initare are far worse because that requires understanding your enemies cooldowns and knowing how far they go etc.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Can we stop pretending that Q-R-R is a legitimate play pattern.

If you are obscenely far ahead, sure, you can kill someone with that. And maybe you shouldn't be able to. But saying that Diana is toxic because of her QRR burst combo is arguing the minority of cases.


In a normal game, q, r, w, e, three autoattacks/passive, r. Will kill your target. It isn't fast. It isn't Talon, Leblanc, or Akali level burst. But it works.

That is the justification for her shield. She isn't exaclty limber. She's the Lion of the assassin world.

To be clear, if an ahead Diana is toxic, than find a way to divert some of her power away from the second R cast. It can be put in ANY other place.

We do not need to make her a bruiser. We do not want her to be a tank.


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Asatorrr

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
I'm running out of patience with that side of the argument. If you think she's a tanky fighter...or was EVER designed to be that. Go play her against tanky fighters and see how splendedly she gets mutilated.

You can build all the tank items you want on any chamion your heart desires.

If you go in on a non-squishy during a team fight. You will die. Quickly.

And the argument of "zed is better or fizz is better or derp leblanc derp" ....Yeah. You're right.



That's the point of the thread.
It's not about how well she performs RIGHT NOW, it's about how her kit informs her gameplay. I argue that her passive and shield and CC and all-in nature is more fighter than assassin. You're right that she can't go head to head with other fighters like Olaf, but I would like to see her in a state where she does. That to me is a lot more fun than another "derp derp assassin derp" especially one that can't or doesn't want to escape. THATS THE IDENTITY CRISIS SHE HAS. Assassins are In-N-Out because they are fragile. Diana's kit traded the Out for tankiness, and that makes for a hard to balance champion.