Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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exec3

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Maybe just give a debuff where if Diana R's to the same person twice within X seconds the second jump deals half damage. Think Udyr stun.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by TheFrozenIsles View Post
I see what you mean but the thing is I dont see what type of answer you what. I mean with who you have listed. I only really see Gragas. Hell if you believe Lolking. Diana is play more then all of the champs you have listed beside Orianna and Gragas. If not for personal liking then ever one will play the top 5 in each role and that will be it.
My point moreover is throwing her into an already bustling niche seems counter productive. Also a lot of people enjoy those champions. I find Jarvan to be quite fun as well as Zac. Orianna is hell of fun especially when you land multi man shockwaves. Shockwaves yield the same effect of q Diana initiate without dying. I am saying that everyone that does what seems to be desired out of her already has a lot of play or at least can so it now without as much risk.

I also don't understand this thing about needing bruisers to build AP. Their jobs would be the same as an AD bruiser but they would have no sustain this making them a lot less worth it. I get a different feeling from playing Akali than I do Diana. Akali I feel stealthy and like I am infiltrating. On Diana Inam kicking the door in followed by your teeth and I dare you to stop me. If you run I will bring my justice to you anyways. Get what I mean now?


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asatorrr View Post
You can't front-load the damage of her ult on targets afflicted by moonlight. The problem isn't that she can jump the same target twice, it's that her QRR does lots of damage, especially when its overtuned and kills people before they can react. Making her first R do the same damage that two R would have done would make her burstier and remove more interaction. Landing Q and using R is already incentivized because the CD is refreshed. That's strong enough. She doesn't need more damage to incentivize using R on Q'd opponents.

Also I feel like the only reason people are so attached to assassin Diana is because she was overpowered on release and killed people better than the other assassins that existed at that point (and she didn't die).
OP here, I started and season 3 and wasn't around during her OP days I have just always felt that assassin Diana was the best Diana. She never felt like someone Inshould be trying to be this tanky threat with. In all honesty three of her skills are about you not escaping her rampaging justice and her killing you because you are in denial. So Ibwant that feeling to stay. I don't think a dps bruiser Diana would have wiped out a monastery of the Solari. Especially if you consider the sunlight people to be about that tank and cc life then she definitely would have been just burst killing people and moving from room to room. I am aware that the champions probably from a lore standpoint are not as limited action wise but I feel the imagery will help you understand my point.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is definitely a possible tactic, since it would allow for her Q->R to still do reasonable damage without the abuse case of the second R.
Now Vesh, if Moonlight does mostly the same thing as Sunlight, it might be somewhat troubling.

Moonlight should definitely be more a part of Diana.

But if just a 'consume for damage', that might not fit her.

It could be a persistent damage buff, such that Lunar Rush does more damage per stack of Moonlight on a target. (Which I've perhaps partly recommended before.)

So Vesh, do you want Moonlight to remain a removable trigger? Or is there room for 'maintain the Moonlight' gameplay?


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Balerion

Member

01-30-2014

Diana honestly deserves to be buffed.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Hyrum Graff View Post
Second this, though I would also say that you also risk throwing away a large portion of her fans if you change her to a pure burst assassin.



Diana was my first main - her free week following release was my first week playing lol; I promptly saved up 6300 IP and have played her consistently since. In my experience, assassin (read: glass cannon) Diana can teamfight in one of two ways:
1) Initiate onto the adc (or other fed squishy) with q->r->w->lich bane proc->r->auto->e->lichbane proc, passive proc. This takes every adc from 100-0, imo. Then get bursted, regardless of whether you zhonya's.
2) Wait until the teamfight breaks out, then use the same combo to burst the adc (maybe wait for the 2nd q to use r again, so you can help mop up.

In neither of these situations does the shield from w do very much. It's not a necessary part of her kit as an assassin, except as far as another 60% AP of damage goes. Furthermore:
-If e gave her bonus MR and Armor (if only a little, if she's only diving on the adc), that would be a defensive boost similar in function to her shield (allows her to survive long enough to get off the 2nd lich bane proc).
-The damage on her shield is compensated for by increased AP scaling on her ult. We can afford to do this because of the ult's decreased base damage. This, combined with the change to moonlight, gives Assassin diana a buff, since now she can also clean up after a teamfight.
I feel like that is the story of a more equal match. But if you apply early map pressure after getting a lane kill or three under your belt then when you go to blow up the enemy carry you should be able to survive after your hourglass if your team is smart enough to go in after you.

At least that's how it usually worked for me when I was doing well. The shield was a part of my burst combo and helped me not drop from a few auto attacks or a speel that flew my way after going in. Afterwards I Zhonya's and then my team cleans up and I help round up the cattle with them.


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Watermaester

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I think there's been a misunderstanding. I was talking about the damage on R being gated by having a moonlight on the target being a possible way to reduce burst damage from Q->R->R.

In no way was I suggesting she should only be able to R to people with moonlight on them.
Ah, I think you may have misunderstood Vesh. He/she was implying that the second R lets Diana stick to enemies, which I think is really nice early game since her E has such a huge CD.

Maybe have an ult to a Moonlight proc deal less damage but still let it be refreshable?


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Semantic Memory

Recruiter

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I think there's been a misunderstanding. I was talking about the damage on R being gated by having a moonlight on the target being a possible way to reduce burst damage from Q->R->R.

In no way was I suggesting she should only be able to R to people with moonlight on them.
What if R doesn't reset anymore on Moonlight, but instead, Diana's passive automatically procs on any target with the Moonlight debuff on them? And then you increase the damage slightly on R to compensate, and lower the CD? This would make her burst a bit more controllable, and at the same time, add a new level of depth to her play because if she gives more than 1 target a Moonlight debuff, she can conceivably proc her passive more than once in a fight.

Just throwing out ideas here.


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-30-2014
11 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesbian Diana View Post
long post inc please read I care about this

Vesh, why do you insist there's something wrong with diana's sheild scaling with AP? Riven exists. The sheild is not a problem, you already nerfed it hard. Building 80 extra AP only gives the shield 48 more health, and that's only on full proc.

48 health on a shield for 1600 gold? How on earth is that a problem? All it does in laning phase is allow her to trade evenly with other melee assassins because she has ZERO sustain. See: akali, every ad assassin that can use lifesteal quints or vamp or tiamat



You said the issues is you don't know what she is, an assassin or a fighter, and yet we have champions like Zed, who are obviously an assassin, and yet Zed with any reasonable build (botrk lw brut boots, like a hourglass abyssal double doran diana) can stand toe to toe and bruise it out with ADCs with the same items and most top laners that arent ahead in levels by virtue of not roaming or having to back from ganks. Any AD assassin can slug it out by virtue of auto attacks. Akali (one of the other rare AP melee assassins) has natural bonus damage on auto attacks, builds both lifesteal and spellvamp, and has low cooldowns. Kha'Zix can out-duel pretty much every single champion with only the use of his Q spell in isolation if it's evolved. So what's the problem with Diana being fully capable of building single-target burst items and 1-shotting a carry (just like every other assassin) and then having an auto-attack steroid (bonus damage + a little attack speed) and a shield to be able to stay in the fight and bruise it out? The shield compensates for zero sustain (spellvamp was semi-almost-okay from the lizard elder but that was only if you were jungling her anyway and you took it away) and the auto attack procs with low cooldown QR combo make up for having no "real" auto-attack scaling without building Nashor's Tooth (which does inhibit flat-out burst).

So what exactly is the problem? If anything, the problem is you made her numbers too weak. She can still 1-shot someone by building DFG or Lich Bane which allow you to 100-0 a carry in two seconds with either item. She can't actually QRR someone for a kill at any stage of the game unless she's hyper fed without those items. Anyone that fed can do that, I've seen vayne 3 shot someone because she got IE and shiv before they finished their second item. So Diana can build an item or two to let her be an assassin, and then she's not that good at bruising in the middle of the fight, but with hourglass and resists she won't evaporate either. However, if she forgoes the assassin items for more AP for a bigger sheild, more DPS with the moonsilver blade procs and Nashor's tooth for CDR and the auto attacks, suddenly Diana can actually face-to-face duel with bruisers. She might be able to blow up a carry, but only if they're behind, once an adc gets negatron cloak nashor's diana cannot QRR for kill in almost any situation. Run the numbers.



All I see is that she's one of the rare cases where you can build her how you want. I've tried dps diana building her with things like wits, sunfire and gauntlet, and if you have a real assassin on your team, it actually works as a frontline or peeler. Nashor's tooth in the jungle is a really popular item that lets her auto-attack nearly on par with AD assassins who build BT, RH or bork, minus the lifesteal. Just because she's capable of building like an assassin and therefore was used as that role since 100-0 a carry is usually what is expected of the mid laner doesn't somehow mean that's a problem.

Should Malphite be having an identity crisis because you can build DFG on him and literally remove anyone without MR from the map whenever you want? It's the exact same mechanic. (Almost) Anyone becomes an assassin when they are fed or build burst items, but Diana does actually have the option to be built as a fighter. The problem is she's actually somewhat weak at this because of having no sustain and a repeatedly nerfed (and apparently, soon to be gutted yet again) shield. What if her E had a passive spellvamp? Or a passive attack speed?

Saying diana's ability to QRR someone and kill them is bad is, I feel, just wrong. Every assassin does that, just list their combo and say "all you do is X and they die, this is bad" and it sounds the same. The reason people do that and almost nothing else on her is because that's not only a highly desired output from the mid laner but she can't perform the fighter role AS WELL as the competitors. This is because she has zero sustain, is mana heavy on her full combo (pale cascade is the most expensive spell along with moonfall) and AP itemization is not designed for the 'fighter' role.

I'd really like a response to my points because I feel like its really easy to single any champion out and pick apart how their kit works and point out things that you claim are issues without saying how those exact same situations are somehow not a problem on all the other champions with those. E.G. riven's sheild, malphite being perfectly capable of 1-shotting any carry with the build diana uses to do that, every other assassin being able to "bruise" better than diana without changing their build from assassin
There's a lot of stuff here, so I'm sorry if I don't respond to each point individually, but here are a couple things to consider:

Saying diana's ability to QRR someone and kill them is bad is, I feel, just wrong. Every assassin does that, just list their combo and say "all you do is X and they die, this is bad" and it sounds the same.

I explained in an earlier post that a core defining feature of a good assassin is having a way "out" if they succeed. Diana has an all in pattern where she either dies or gets the kill. If she lives past that point it's because shes impossible to kill with her W up, not because she did anything skillfull to juke the enemy team or escape in a way that's interactive. This is one of (but not the only) problem with making Diana a straight up assassin. The other problem is that her assassin pattern only has one place of interaction (dodging the Q) and if she hits it she just presses R twice.

Vesh, why do you insist there's something wrong with diana's sheild scaling with AP? Riven exists. The sheild is not a problem, you already nerfed it hard. Building 80 extra AP only gives the shield 48 more health, and that's only on full proc.

An AP shield isn't inherently problematic. It's a problem if she has an assassin pattern though, because it undermines the decisions she has to make. If she builds straight AP, she simultaneously can instant kill someone while also being incredibly tanky -after the fact-. When Diana is ahead there's literally no clear window in which to fight her, especially since the duration of the shield is pretty long when it matters most (when she's already on top of you from a targeted dash).


Should Malphite be having an identity crisis because you can build DFG on him and literally remove anyone without MR from the map whenever you want?

If this becomes the dominant build on Malphite then that's a problem. DFG creates some of this inherently which any champion that has a decent AP ratio + closing power, but with Malphite you are giving up a ton of survivability by going straight AP, whereas Diana doesn't have this weakness. Going straight AP on Diana still allows her to be even more tanky. Consider aslso that Diana frequently builds abyssal and zhonyas, which give her added armor and MR on that shield which is scaling with AP.

Anyway, to reiterate, it's probably ok for her to have an AP scaling shield as long as she isn't jumping on people, one shotting them, and then being tanky afterwards. A big consideration here is what type of items we want Diana to be building. If the shield scaled off health, she would be building items such as sunfire, haunting guise, rylais, etc. These are probably a lot less cool on her than items such as Nashor's Tooth and Zhonya's Hourglass which feel really good on her.


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Hyrum Graff

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semantic Memory View Post
What if R doesn't reset anymore on Moonlight, but instead, Diana's passive automatically procs on any target with the Moonlight debuff on them? And then you increase the damage slightly on R to compensate, and lower the CD? This would make her burst a bit more controllable, and at the same time, add a new level of depth to her play because if she gives more than 1 target a Moonlight debuff, she can conceivably proc her passive more than once in a fight.

Just throwing out ideas here.
Yes, but you lose the fun and sticking power of being able to r twice in the same fight, which, given the current League of Mobility, is important. When you q->r to lucian and he dashes away, the second r lets you catch him. Remove that, and Diana's kill potential drops drastically.