Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Samflash3

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxReeboBand View Post
Another idea would be to allow Diana to only use ult when something has moonlight. That way Q R R can no longer be abused since moonlight has been consumed by ult. This would restrain the massive burst it puts out and would allow for her to be buffed in other areas to compensate.
But then she can't initiate with R - E.


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TheFrozenIsles

Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Aside from personal liking tell me why you would top lane Diana over Aatrox, Zac, Jarvan or Malphite for an initator role? They all have higher disruption and are more durable than her. If you go from the jungle perspective and throw in Nocturne, Sejuani, Amumu and Nautilus it gets really sad. From mid lane initiates I can only think of Lissandra, Orianna and Gragas at the moment. The point is I have named at least ten champions that bring initiation to the table and do it better. So how are we gonna make her as good at something as ten percent of the roster already is and maintain her unique even if it is somewhat binary play style?
I see what you mean but the thing is I dont see what type of answer you what. I mean with who you have listed. I only really see Gragas. Hell if you believe Lolking. Diana is play more then all of the champs you have listed beside Orianna and Gragas. If not for personal liking then ever one will play the top 5 in each role and that will be it.


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Timjin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is definitely a possible tactic, since it would allow for her Q->R to still do reasonable damage without the abuse case of the second R.
I'd rather the mobility not be reduced, as the ult reset adds a great flow to Diana's kit. I'd rather that a target recently hit by her ult took reduced damage, or better yet; why not cause the mark to control the majority of the damage? (Think Akali or Kat)

Lunar Rush:

Active: Diana becomes the living embodiment of the vengeful moon, rushing at an enemy and dealing magic damage to it.

When used to teleport to an enemy afflicted with Moonlight, Lunar Rush's cooldown is refreshed the Moonlight debuff is consumed and the damage is doubled. All other enemies will have the Moonlight debuff removed regardless of whether they were the target of Lunar Rush.

Magic Damage: 60 / 90 / 120 (+ 35% AP) (Or something around there depending on balance)

This way, you can R in to initiate, for reduced damage, but if you land the Q beforehand, you gain boosted damage, and still have the ability to R in again, for overall much less burst.

Tweak the rest of the kits numbers as well, and you have much less reason to simply QRR every time.

With this version, you could even lower the cooldown on R to allow more mobility to Diana without giving her a massive power spike.


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Gixia

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is definitely a possible tactic, since it would allow for her Q->R to still do reasonable damage without the abuse case of the second R.
I actually like the additional mobility that having a second R gives you, especially when there's multiple enemies around to jump to. What if the R simply did less damage so that doubling R on the same target was less effective and that power was transferred elsewhere onto her kit?


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Lesbian Diana

Senior Member

01-30-2014

long post inc please read I care about this

Vesh, why do you insist there's something wrong with diana's sheild scaling with AP? Riven exists. The sheild is not a problem, you already nerfed it hard. Building 80 extra AP only gives the shield 48 more health, and that's only on full proc.

48 health on a shield for 1600 gold? How on earth is that a problem? All it does in laning phase is allow her to trade evenly with other melee assassins because she has ZERO sustain. See: akali, every ad assassin that can use lifesteal quints or vamp or tiamat



You said the issues is you don't know what she is, an assassin or a fighter, and yet we have champions like Zed, who are obviously an assassin, and yet Zed with any reasonable build (botrk lw brut boots, like a hourglass abyssal double doran diana) can stand toe to toe and bruise it out with ADCs with the same items and most top laners that arent ahead in levels by virtue of not roaming or having to back from ganks. Any AD assassin can slug it out by virtue of auto attacks. Akali (one of the other rare AP melee assassins) has natural bonus damage on auto attacks, builds both lifesteal and spellvamp, and has low cooldowns. Kha'Zix can out-duel pretty much every single champion with only the use of his Q spell in isolation if it's evolved. So what's the problem with Diana being fully capable of building single-target burst items and 1-shotting a carry (just like every other assassin) and then having an auto-attack steroid (bonus damage + a little attack speed) and a shield to be able to stay in the fight and bruise it out? The shield compensates for zero sustain (spellvamp was semi-almost-okay from the lizard elder but that was only if you were jungling her anyway and you took it away) and the auto attack procs with low cooldown QR combo make up for having no "real" auto-attack scaling without building Nashor's Tooth (which does inhibit flat-out burst).

So what exactly is the problem? If anything, the problem is you made her numbers too weak. She can still 1-shot someone by building DFG or Lich Bane which allow you to 100-0 a carry in two seconds with either item. She can't actually QRR someone for a kill at any stage of the game unless she's hyper fed without those items. Anyone that fed can do that, I've seen vayne 3 shot someone because she got IE and shiv before they finished their second item. So Diana can build an item or two to let her be an assassin, and then she's not that good at bruising in the middle of the fight, but with hourglass and resists she won't evaporate either. However, if she forgoes the assassin items for more AP for a bigger sheild, more DPS with the moonsilver blade procs and Nashor's tooth for CDR and the auto attacks, suddenly Diana can actually face-to-face duel with bruisers. She might be able to blow up a carry, but only if they're behind, once an adc gets negatron cloak nashor's diana cannot QRR for kill in almost any situation. Run the numbers.



All I see is that she's one of the rare cases where you can build her how you want. I've tried dps diana building her with things like wits, sunfire and gauntlet, and if you have a real assassin on your team, it actually works as a frontline or peeler. Nashor's tooth in the jungle is a really popular item that lets her auto-attack nearly on par with AD assassins who build BT, RH or bork, minus the lifesteal. Just because she's capable of building like an assassin and therefore was used as that role since 100-0 a carry is usually what is expected of the mid laner doesn't somehow mean that's a problem.

Should Malphite be having an identity crisis because you can build DFG on him and literally remove anyone without MR from the map whenever you want? It's the exact same mechanic. (Almost) Anyone becomes an assassin when they are fed or build burst items, but Diana does actually have the option to be built as a fighter. The problem is she's actually somewhat weak at this because of having no sustain and a repeatedly nerfed (and apparently, soon to be gutted yet again) shield. What if her E had a passive spellvamp? Or a passive attack speed?

Saying diana's ability to QRR someone and kill them is bad is, I feel, just wrong. Every assassin does that, just list their combo and say "all you do is X and they die, this is bad" and it sounds the same. The reason people do that and almost nothing else on her is because that's not only a highly desired output from the mid laner but she can't perform the fighter role AS WELL as the competitors. This is because she has zero sustain, is mana heavy on her full combo (pale cascade is the most expensive spell along with moonfall) and AP itemization is not designed for the 'fighter' role.

I'd really like a response to my points because I feel like its really easy to single any champion out and pick apart how their kit works and point out things that you claim are issues without saying how those exact same situations are somehow not a problem on all the other champions with those. E.G. riven's sheild, malphite being perfectly capable of 1-shotting any carry with the build diana uses to do that, every other assassin being able to "bruise" better than diana without changing their build from assassin


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aceofsween

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Moonlight proc doing damage would be a neat effect... if it weren't already something two other champions bring to their kits (Lux and Leona).


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Timjin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
I actually like the additional mobility that having a second R gives you, especially when there's multiple enemies around to jump to. What if the R simply did less damage so that doubling R on the same target was less effective and that power was transferred elsewhere onto her kit?
I wouldn't mind this either. Seems like people are against the idea of her losing her assassination, but something has to go in order to grant her power.


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Asatorrr

Senior Member

01-30-2014

You can't front-load the damage of her ult on targets afflicted by moonlight. The problem isn't that she can jump the same target twice, it's that her QRR does lots of damage, especially when its overtuned and kills people before they can react. Making her first R do the same damage that two R would have done would make her burstier and remove more interaction. Landing Q and using R is already incentivized because the CD is refreshed. That's strong enough. She doesn't need more damage to incentivize using R on Q'd opponents.

Also I feel like the only reason people are so attached to assassin Diana is because she was overpowered on release and killed people better than the other assassins that existed at that point (and she didn't die).


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SerThunderkeg

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is definitely a possible tactic, since it would allow for her Q->R to still do reasonable damage without the abuse case of the second R.
Noooooo, please no. I logged in just to say this. Part of what I really love about Diana is her ability to stick and follow up on people and losing that second dash would absolutely ruin that.


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Labcown

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is definitely a possible tactic, since it would allow for her Q->R to still do reasonable damage without the abuse case of the second R.
I absolutely love the idea of Diana becoming more of a fighter than this Assassin/Tank Hybrid we have now. We need more AP fighters, and I think most of Diana's kit fits the description pretty nicely. If you really are looking to change her Q-R-R combo though, I'd like to see something that'd fit with her new role personality a bit better like:

A) Tanky: Refresh/Give her a shield (Based on W w/o the damage component)
  • This reinforce the idea of her durability and might make sense because of W, but thematically makes the least sense to me, because when I think of Diana, I think of something like a Burning Matyr, someone who dives in but doesn't wholly considers her own well being.

B) Disruptor/Initiator: Root/Snare Target (Visually it'd look like Leona's Ult but Lunar!)
  • This would give her some utility and would make her more of an attractive pick for some organized team comps as she could dive into their backline and disrupt an important damage dealer. Again thematically, this makes sense, but Diana is somewhat selfish in her approach IMO so this wouldnt really fit her personality either.
C) Brawler/Fighter: Give herself some sort of self-buff, Movement Speed, Attack Speed, or Both.
  • This would more than likely be the "healthiest" and most well-balanced idea up here. It fits her thematics nicely, and would easily rank her into the lines of Fighters that are well known for their steroids. Gameplay wise, this however wouldn't seem as exciting. It's essentially hidden power, but I think this would help open her build path up, allowing items like Nashor's or Wit's End showing up on players who want to take advantage of Passive-Q-R for massive amounts of AS. This could even borrow some of it's power from her Passive, as it'd seem they'd be competing for the power budget as it is.