Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

First Riot Post
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JevelFaithful

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Also I am sorry about typos. I typed this novel on a smartphone and so some of them were not noticed like in the title for example.
Kudo for having the patience to type that on a phone.


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Partholonian

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I think Diana actually has something important in common with Fiora: multiple ways into a fight, no ways out. Kill or die. This can become a problematic play pattern for both sides. Fiora has her ult to shake off aggro in a teamfight, but in spite of that, still is somewhat lacking in teamfight presence and often has to build splitpush when she is played at all, or try to play as an assassin even though she's not really designed to.

Also, I agree with the person who said that her passive makes it look like an AS/AP build would be good, but it's actually somewhat of a trap ATM compared to hard AP. Maybe something more passive and auto attack centered that DID reward AS/AP would be better for her? Unlike bruisers and assassins, there aren't very many of those champions right now. I feel like nashors tooth, wits end, rageblade would suit her thematically and might lead in an interesting direction.

What if, for example, she got some benefit from auto attacking a moonlit target, such as reducing the remaining cd on q by 1 sec? Or procing her passive on a moonlit target makes it do bonus damage? Then she wants to get in and auto attack to proc passive and recover q cd, using e to stick and w to survive. Removing the consume/reset on QR would let her close with a moonlit target while keeping the moonlight, and follow it up with AAs to get the new reward. Of course this keeps q central to her kit (although I also like the idea of moonlight on e, since it seems like a somewhat in impressive skill ATM).


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Spectre Gadget

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Maybe something to look into is changing how the moonlight proc works. The reset idea is great, but since you think one of her issues is q-r-r maybe it needs to be taken out? What if the moonlight proc did damage instead? My idea: when Diana ults an enemy with moonlight, that enemy and all other enemies with moonlight within a circle around diana are damaged by the moonlight consumption. It would kind of cool thematically because you go from new moon, to crescent moon, to full moon.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Would giving Lunar Rush a Sweeping Blade vibe be beneficial to her role?

"Targeting an enemy afflicted with Moonlight will refresh the cooldown, but Lunar Rush cannot target them again for 6 seconds."

Moonlight is no longer removed from everything when you consume one of the debuffs (coupled with making Crescent Strike slower and the explosion at the end slightly smaller).


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Jibaku

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Thanks for posting this. I love Diana and would love her to be played once more.

I think the issue Diana has at the moment is not necessarily that she's a tanky assassin. The problem lies in her build flexibility - or lack thereof. It is far more appealing to build Diana as an assassin than as a bruiser, and she's not a super good assassin due to her lack of disengage. People often get the feeling that she can be focused down easily in teamfights if not suffiicently fed. What I feel that we should do is improve her bruiser qualities without destroying her assassin play, but nerfing that slightly to keep her balanced.

I've thought of a couple ideas from a few months ago on how to approach this. Diana is one of my favorite champs and I think her skills flow together so smoothly, and thus does not need major changes.
General changes here include increasing base damages and lowering ratios (Diana's ratios are a bit higher than average relative to her base damages), as well as making Moonfall a more appealing skill in general.

[General]
Base Attack Speed increased to 0.668 from 0.625

[Passive] - Moonsilver Blade
Attack Speed removed (moved to ult)
Damage rescaled to be slightly higher at lower levels.
Now applies single target spell effects on the primary target.

[Q] - Crescent Strike
Base damage increased to 80-240 from 60-200
Ability power ratio reduced to 0.5 from 0.7
Can no longer be cast for a split second after casting ult (this change is meant to prevent people from using R + Q in such a quick succession that R still resets. Only doable with very low ping).

[W] - Pale Cascade:
Total shield increased to 80-240 from 80-200
Ability Power on shield reduced to 0.45 from 0.6.
Damage untouched
Additionally scales off bonus health (idk how much)

[E] - Moonfall
Mana cost reduced to 60 from 75
Range increased to 300 from 250
No longer slows enemies hit (still pulls enemies)
Now leaves a field that slows enemies by 35/45/55/65/75% and increases all damage dealt by 10% (think Vlad ult. Yes, this increases damage by allies). This field lasts for 3 seconds.
Cooldown reduced to 22-14 from 26-18 (why the heck is it so long anyways :|)

[R] - Lunar Rush
Range increased to (min range for Diana to be able the ult to Dragon from the back wall).
Cooldown reduced to 20/16/12 from 25/20/15
Damage reduced to 80/130/180 from 100/160/220
Ability power ratio reduced to 0.5 from 0.6
Now grants Diana 40/60/80% Attack Speed for 5 seconds upon consuming the Moonlight debuff.


Context:
One of my greatest frustrations when playing as Diana is how unimpactful Moonfall feels. First of all it's probably the biggest 1 point wonder in the game (like Elise E), and putting more points into it doesn't really increase the slow by much and the cooldown is still too long to be used twice in one fight. Unlike say, Orianna ult, Diana's E lacks that...kaboom, and given that it is her only CC, being a one-time use spell in fights feels pretty weak. The Moonfall change is intended to make using it more satisfying for her and her teammates. While I originally intended for Diana to get extra resistances based on the number of enemies hit, I realized that conflicts with the QRE + Zhonya initiate that some people love to do. I think a damage increase grants Diana more synergy with AoE teams that would appreciate her pulling everything close together.

The ult changes basically reduces her burst output (double R still puts out a solid 360 (+1.0 AP) damage so it's not trashed by any means), and increases her passive usage. I've kept double R in there so her assassination skills remain, but overall she'll have more sustained damage. I reverted the ult CD nerf from a long time back so she is not totally reliant on landing her Q in lategame teamfights, and I feel like with the damage nerf she doesn't need as long of a cooldown at any stage of the game.

Speaking of her passive, I added the single target spell effect component to give her more incentive to buy items like Rylais and perhaps even spellvamp. I'm not sure how strong it'd be, though.

I guess one of the hard things about making an AP Bruiser is that we don't really have a melee one at the moment. Ironically, all AP bruiser-like champions are ranged except for Rumble/Elise - the former is practically ranged anyways and the latter is only half melee).


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Great Wolf Sif

Junior Member

01-30-2014

I'm an avid Diana player and really enjoy her concept as well as original gameplay. To be quite honest she's my favorite champion. I love her so much that I bought the lunar goddess skin and realized that I wholeheartedly like her original skin 10x better and will probably feel that way about any of her skins that come out (Seriously? Hair color changes in both skins, and a moon themed skin THAT COULD HAVE BEEN SO MUCH BETTER has the ugliest look NA. Nice particles though). I've played Diana as both a fighter and an assassin, and to be quiet honest I really don't like the assassin Diana as much.

I feel more reward out of her current passive which is similar in nature to Vayne's W. Diana was a very unique design that really pulled me in. She was an AP Caster with a passive that begged to be utilized rather than just seldom thought of to get in some extra harass or push a turret quicker. I feel like her current passive is a beautiful iteration that deserves some extra power or a stealth buff VIA her base AS/scaling. There's nothing more rewarding than to duel someone when you've built say a Trinity force, nashors tooth, wits end, or any kind of AS item and see the cleaves left and right. It's a beautiful scene that I think should be priority Diana gameplay. We have a lot of AP casters, and from what I've learned from other assassins is that they are really frustrating to play against and for the most part don't feel rewarding in some cases. I played talon top for a long time before season 4 and mostly in season 2, and I can say that 1-0ing someone lategame is a nice feeling, but I'm not looking for that call of duty atmosphere where I kill you really fast and get that quick feeling of accomplishment as reward. Granted some assassins do take a bit of work to do that, it just overall doesn't feel right for Diana's niche. My problem is that as Diana I feel like I should be able to CHOOSE if I want to just straight up assassinate a target (Warwick does this, and can still be a fighter/tank), or if I want to join the front lines and prioritize targets in a more thought out manner.

If anything should be considered, it would be this: The reason why I personally feel Diana shouldn't be a straight assassin is because bursting someone down very fast doesn't let her passive really shine. They die so fast you don't get to enjoy a fight, skillful play, anything. One can argue that landing her Q and getting to ult to them might be that "skillful play", but I think that's like saying landing Akali's Q then ulting to them is also skillful.


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Diana x Me

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre Gadget View Post
Maybe something to look into is changing how the moonlight proc works. The reset idea is great, but since you think one of her issues is q-r-r maybe it needs to be taken out? What if the moonlight proc did damage instead? My idea: when Diana ults an enemy with moonlight, that enemy and all other enemies with moonlight within a circle around diana are damaged by the moonlight consumption. It would kind of cool thematically because you go from new moon, to crescent moon, to full moon.
A better idea is the ult is only capable of being used when the enemy has moonlight on them. Lower the ap ratio and base damage of ult and let all abilities proc moonlight. You cant ult to the same target for lets say 3-5 seconds but all enemies with the moonlight proc are able to be ulted to with moonlight only being removed after a set amount of time or when ulted to. Give the ult increasingly higher mana costs each time used in a certain amount of time kinda like kogmaw or kassadin. It controls how often you can use it and the amount of burst on single targets + allows for the ability to outplay/ set up strategies to escape or pursue. I think this idea could be worked with and its thematically friendly on all points.


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Asolith

Junior Member

01-30-2014

What about giving her shield a very low ap scaling, and making it auto attack reliant like Spagyrist said. Somewhat like how Tryndamere's e cooldown is reduced by a set amount per crit, her shield cd could be reduced by .5s every time she autos. The base cd of the spell would probably have to be increased at all levels, but it'd be far cleaner than stacking orbs etc.

That way the longer she stays in a fight, the tankier she becomes, and you'd have to balance between damage and tankiness. Sure you could build glass cannon and one-shot carries, but you'd have no staying power as you make very little use of the smaller shield. There'd be more of a focus on saving r for moonlight afflicted targets so that you can stick to people and continue landing auto attacks to cycle your shield.

If she proved to be too strong in drawn-out fights, you could reduce the shield value by 10% for each additional cast within 6/7 seconds up to a max of 4 stacks or something like that. Kind of along the lines of Kog'Maw's stacking manacosts on bio-arcane barrage.


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Jancarius

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Member

01-30-2014

My favorite ideas from this thread have been the ones about giving her a way to build as an assassin or as a tank. I've been junglign Xin and Vi this season, and both can build well into an offense oriented build, or a defense oriented build. I feel that Diana should be similar.

The "auto attacks build charges, and the passive proc would give a bunch of charges" thing is brilliant. Something one charge = current initial shield, 3 charges = current secondary shield, and then scaling up to 5 charges where it's dramatically strong. Make it scale off health, this will synergize well with Rylai's.

On the assassin side, I think that R should have a 'detonation' on all the Moonlight procs, something low level similar to Sunlight/Luminosity.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre Gadget View Post
Maybe something to look into is changing how the moonlight proc works. The reset idea is great, but since you think one of her issues is q-r-r maybe it needs to be taken out? What if the moonlight proc did damage instead? My idea: when Diana ults an enemy with moonlight, that enemy and all other enemies with moonlight within a circle around diana are damaged by the moonlight consumption. It would kind of cool thematically because you go from new moon, to crescent moon, to full moon.
I think this would make her 100-0 potential higher than Riot is comfortable with. Not to mention an extremely snowballed Diana could the potentially Q R the ADC and support and two shot them both basically. Granted that would only be nbcringe cases which I fully support rewarding people for stomping Riot does not feel that way. Would be extremely dun to play as but not as much for the enemy team to deal with. Especially with Lich Bane thrown in. I di like it though.