Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

First Riot Post
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lnzane

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Honestly if we are going by the fighter-initiator path, her e and r should be switched (she probably becomes a yasuo but less of an akali this way)
ofc the new r would need to be massively buffed where she gets resistances and other stuff (albeit a longer cd) as someone mentioned earlier.

edit also if OP doesn't mind, imma link another diana buff related thread that vesh should look at
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=3998161


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Darkomantis

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Hi Vesh. I may not play Diana at all these days but when I did play her Moonsilver Blade and Lunar Rush was really lackluster. It was cool to use Q and then R however, the ability to R again looked very odd and was too strong. Do you know how terrifying it is to run from a person who has three gap-closers? Also, Moonsilver Blade makes you think that building Attack Speed is good on Diana when it's actually the opposite: just build straight AP. It may be drastic but I suggest changing up around the abilities to make her more of a DPS Fighter/Assassin that is stronger as the fight goes on in place of just instantly killing one person.

To do this switch Diana's Pale Cascade and Lunar Rush. Diana's new Pale Cascade gives her a Moonlight orb which grants her bonus Attack Speed every time one of her abilities damages an enemy. You can activate Pale Cascade to damage enemies in a circle around the player and gain a shield. The damage and shield strength will be increased based on how many orbs you have obtained. Lunar Rush would become a normal ability that can only be used once. Compensation for the removed second Lunar Rush will be made by making Moonfall attract enemies in a crescent in front of the player and have more range.

This change would make her more dependent on her passive, CDR builds will be more rewarded causing consistent damage, and gives her enemy an opportunity to escape/engage her without having the whole enemy team trying to stop Diana from instagabing someone.


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CTHDRL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Long time player here; from 2009. I feel like I have a decent idea of what you guys at Riot are trying to achieve with your new balancing philosophies. I am an avid Diana player. I personally HATE mid Diana, I think her kit is fantastic from the jungle and I LOVE the new spirit stone iterations. Especially the Wraith one; the sustain passive is a little too strong, but nothing knocking off a whole % to both parts wouldn't fix.

So right now Diana has a very fun kit, as you stated she is basically a QRR champ; where if you are ahead you get the kill, if you aren't ahead you press zhonyas and hope your team can follow up. Which is gameplay that can be improved upon.


I personally like all of her skills, and I think if you balanced her less aound this idea of simply doing damage and jumping in to the fight with R, just to do more damage and die; and more around interesting interactions with her skills, passive, and new designs on Moonlight. Then you will hit the mark we're all looking for. I really love her cleave, it sounds really good, and it feels really good. But I think if you take away some of her frontloaded damage, and give her some more sustained damage throughout fights by..

1. Buffing her passive damage and giving her enough base AS to compensate for not having to take AS Blues (I currently run AS reds and blues for Diana jungle because I just do not like the feel of her base AS.) If she had enough base AS to warrant just Red or even a couple Quints; this would allow her to have more rune options while still feeling fun to play when it comes to Moonsilver Blade.

2. Decreasing her ratios and buffing base damage; while buffing her mana costs so she is less reliant on blue and regening mana on jungle creeps. This will encourage people to build more tanky/utility based and rely on LIVING and getting MULTIPLE rotations of skills off to do damage, as well as relying more on Moonsilver Blade and making good decisions with how you use your skills instead of just stacking AP and spamming QRRW and hoping that your target dies before you. This will also discourage midlane Diana which is IMO where a lot of trouble started, because she has a huge powerspike at level 6 with ZERO counterplay; or she just has ZERO chance in lane because her matchups that aren't good are atrocious. I think Diana should be balanced exclusively for the jungle and possibly as a niche top laner.

3. Give Moonlight more utility. Make Moonsilver Blade have a stacking slow like GP passive, on target affected by Moonight. Have R extend the duration of Moonlight Blade.

And/Or

3a. Targets affected by Moonlight will take % damage to allow Diana to deal with tanks since she won't be able to optimize BotRK like basically all other melees.

And/Or

3b. Design an interaction with Moonsilver Blade and Moonlight that gives Diana sustain. Without making sure her W remains VERY good, AND/OR Diana gets sustain incorporated into her kit she will NOT be playable. I personally do not like this fact, but along with mobility creep this is simply how you guys have designed the game and it's too late to change it now. Diana can not be a fighter with out VERY GOOD damage mitigation or innate sustain. Diana is not an AD, she cannot itemize lifesteal, and without being glasscanon itemizing for spellvamp is even LESS viable than just building lifesteal items would. If all these cheesy, broken champs like Elise, Rengar, Kha, (old iterations of) Irelia etc can have innate lifesteal/sustain/flat heals, then something can be incorporated into Diana's kit to the same purpose. This is IMO not negotiable if you guys are going to remove the assassin element from Diana. If you still want Diana to be playable and viable you either have to giver her sustain/damage mitigation that is effective and doesn't have a cooldown of ~9 seconds; or you change 90% of the champs you've release in the last 2 years and remove BotRK.

I would propose something similar to Nocs passive; where Moonsilver Blade gives HP (possibly mana also) back when you his someone affected by Moonlight. This would go very well with the interaction with Lunar Rush I suggested earlier.

And/Or

3c. Enemies affected by Moonlight are slowed a bonus amount by Moonfall.


4. Slightly buff the range of Diana' R so it matches the range of Q. This will make her Q-R initiation feel better and also allow her to R to Drag/Baron.

5. Remove the double R proc on Moonlight; and lower the overall CD to something like ~8 seconds without CDR with more interactions with the rest of her kit moving AWAY from being a glasscannon assassin, this mechanic of the double R with a 22 second cooldown is no longer feasible. Make her be able to be more mobile in teamfights in general and do not stifle the use of her Lunar Rush to limits of her Q. Or put something in her kit that can lower the cooldown of her R, some interaction with Moonsilver Blade or something. Just allowing her to be a little more mobile over a larger span of time (since she'll be a fighter now) will be all that is necessary.



DO NOT...

A. Give her large sources of % damage. I am tired of these champions who have % based damage and innate steroids or amazing kits that just spam tank items and never become irrelevant. It should be rewarding to build damage; in that you get damage but you get less survivability for that item slot. viceversa.

B Give her a spammable low-cost source of sustain that will inevitably be abused to snowball from top lane/become unkillable as a top laner.

C. Make her become untargetable.

D. Give her a high base damage, high ratio execution.

E. Make her manaless.



With my suggestions and ideas these are not changes I want to see exactly. If nothing else I want to inspire new ideas that can help transition Diana from a fun to play, but finicky and an underwhelming champion design; into a character that is amazing to play, rewards good decision making, and has interesting interactions with her skills that allow her to be a force to be reckoned with when making good decisions; but not completely and utterly reliant on having all your decisions be the right ones. If that makes sense?


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatentlyWillton View Post
Name one assassin that has an AoE move-block ability, and I'll name a tank or fighter.

This is the problem with characterizing Diana as an assassin. Assassins generally do not have move-block abilities and shields coupled with them. Indeed, crowd-control and shields are typically of tanks and fighters, not assassins.
The CC argument doesn't actually hold up.

Akali has a stealth shroud that slows also doubles as escape tool

Talon as an AOE slow/poke and a slience. He has stealth which can help him escape.

Kassadin has an AoE slow and silence and Riftwalk

LeBlanc has a silence a slow and a root. And her passive for escaping as well as mobility through W.

Khazix has two slows And stealth for escape with a movement speed buff as well as leap

Zed has a slow and teleporting to shadows for blinking and escape

Fizz has an AoE nuke slow plus interrupt. Also I think his troll pole slows but can't swear to it. His pole also helps him escape.

Ahri has a taunt and dashes to help escape.

Eve has a slow on her ultimate. And a movement speed buff to help her escape.

All assasins have at least some CC. This is a delusion that is all throughout our community for some reason but they all have something. Ironically the one with thee most is ranged.

Now look at Dian with her backline dive tactic and no escape or stealth to even make it a bit easier. She got a shield so that she would not blow up immediately sue to the fact that once she goes in she has to stay in. She got a small pull back because if they didn't she would always have to double R or have to have a slow or wrun attached to it to make sure the person couldn't just walk away every time. Her whole kit is designed to dive the back line and live long enough to kill the person and then use hourglass and hope her team is backing her up by now. Sorry they actually had a good idea with making her this way so that she wouldn't be cookie cutter but now they regret it and don't like where she is. Assassins can have cc and survivabilty especially of the only escape they have is reliant on landing a skill shot on a jungle camp to get away or stray minions.


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Flytrap

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Vesh's posts hinting at where Riot wants to take Diana scare me.

It really bothers me that you think that her Assassin/Mage characteristics should be toned down in order to accentuate her Bruiser qualities; in my opinion, if you do anything to Diana, you should shave off her durability instead of trying to force her into an AP Bruiser niche.


Your rationale for these changes? "She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins". I'm sorry Vesh, but this logic could be applied to any single champion in this game. Let's be real for a minute: each champion only has a Q, W, E, and R with two summoner spells that are on a lengthy cooldown -- EVERYONE only has to "press all the buttons" if they have a slight advantage and they'll come out on top.


If you want to define Diana's role, please go about it in a unique manner... don't simply make her AP Riven and call it a day. Turning Diana into an initiator bot not only defeats her core concept, but it also makes her an incredibly dull champion.


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Spikrit

Junior Member

01-30-2014

EUW Plat Main Diana here.
I would love to see that kind of discussion on the EUW forums too... Had to log on noobish NA account to post here :/

Anw, i didn't read the whole 22 pages, but a BIG part of it. Then, i'm not sure if this has been said, but i think not.

And I have to react to your first post Vesh.

First, i'm all for the assassin path. I never liked the AP fighter one. The main reason is that you can't stand in a fight longer enought to really profit from that path. That's why you liked this mode in 3v3 : you can stand against 3 men and stay alive enought to bring a few passives on the table. That doesn't work on 5v5.

Now, about what you said :

Quote:
Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness.
She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.
I disagree. You can't just go all in and expect to stay alive like that. Specifically in assassin mode. Your goal will be to delete someone and therefore you won't be that tanky. You'll have to carefully measure if it's worth going in or not. Of course, you can be less careful than an Akali. But unlike her, you can't be invisible, you can't dash away, you don't get an additional dash for every kill... HELL, you just can't go away... In the "Get in, get a kill, and get out", Diana didn't get the "get out" part.
That's why i expect to be tankier than Akali. But, no, she's not the ultimate tank.

Quote:
Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins.
Yes, if she's ahead, she'll probably kill her target. Yes, she's supposed to go all-in and unload everything to get a kill, that's her gameplay (i guess?). No, she's not a faceroll-my-keyboard champ.

Quote:
This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem.
Riven anyone?

Quote:
Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.
I don't get that part. It's like saying "Blitz's hook is dumb. Hook = kill. Not exciting. We'll remove that champ".
What?
That's just the main purpose of skill shots (as opposed to targeted spells) : harder to land then bigger reward.
I also disagree on the fact that "Q hit = kill". Like Lee sin, you'll have to judge wisely if a follow up is worth it. Not to mention that if the target is half tanky, you'll have to land additional Qs to have the needed damage to kill your target.


Finally, i can't stress enought that the difference between Diana and other assassins is her lack of escape mecanics. It's the first true all-in champ, IMO, and, therefore, she has to get something for that (her AP scaling tankyness). Yasuo and lee have tons of escapes and still have shields, fortunately, not scaling.


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SerBlaise

Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikrit View Post


I don't get that part. It's like saying "Blitz's hook is dumb. Hook = kill. Not exciting. We'll remove that champ".
What?
That's just the main purpose of skill shots (as opposed to targeted spells) : harder to land then bigger reward.
I also disagree on the fact that "Q hit = kill". Like Lee sin, you'll have to judge wisely if a follow up is worth it. Not to mention that if the target is half tanky, you'll have to land additional Qs to have the needed damage to kill your target.

Agree with everything you said except this:I think what vesh was trying to say about the 'Q hit and die' was that you BOTH die: That I don't enjoy.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by datNeo View Post
Honestly if we are going by the fighter-initiator path, her e and r should be switched (she probably becomes a yasuo but less of an akali this way)
ofc the new r would need to be massively buffed where she gets resistances and other stuff (albeit a longer cd) as someone mentioned earlier.

edit also if OP doesn't mind, imma link another diana buff related thread that vesh should look at
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=3998161
I am all over that thread man on my main and this here Smurf of course I don't mind. Besides even if I weren't all positive contributions to thege discussions are welcome.


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bvelasquez1331

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Ballin', You Know, I'm wi't it.
Ballin', You Know, I get it.
Ballin', You Know, I spend it.


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XXChromusXX

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I feel that it would be even cooler if she started off in a more "initiator" type role with her R->E and maybe zhonyas that set up her team to follow up with additional CC and then transitioned into fighter mode after. Diana feels really good when she's hitting people with her epic moonblade.

With the way she functions currently, her assassin pattern would basically just degenerate to an even more bursty Akali with less options and less points of mastery.
I think I may have an idea that goes with what you seem up favor (the initiate->zhonyas->stay in fight). My idea is to introduce a mechanic that makes her stats/damage/as/passive damage ramp up (to a cap) AFTER shes initiated to one of her abilities. Obviously the numbers are sensitive but you get the point: go in->zhonyas while this mechanic makes her a bit stronger sustain damage-wise->stay in fight with relatively good sustain damage but limited ability to just suddenly assassinate carry.
Needless to say, her passive can really pack a punch in its current form. If you're planning to adjust the numbers to make her better for the role your discussing, then I think the mechanic I'm suggesting may help make that a reality. Numbers allowing, she may now be able to trade in lane more effectively by keeping herself at risk while she gets stronger then attempt an entrance/kill(with risk still, as she's purposely kept herself at risk(since she would be adjusted to not instaburst)). The enemies counter play would be to make sure they poke without getting too comfortable, a mechanic that is already a norm in mid.

I know my idea isn't perfect, but I'm really fond of your idea and I think this style fits her kits needs well, without making her a monster if numbers adjusted.

Let me know people what do u think?