Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

First Riot Post
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Hyrum Graff

Senior Member

01-30-2014

tl;dr, you should be able to read just the bold and get the essence of the post.

Some guy said it about halfway through this thread: People enjoy playing Diana different ways.* This is what makes Diana unique and therefore fun to play - I can build her as a tanky dps fighter or a burst assassin, depending on my team comp and theirs. Accordingly, we don't need to and shouldn't make big changes to her kit, which is very close to working as-is.

*A point of clarification: this is specifically that we can play her different ways depending on itemization only (ie, we can choose how to build her after the game has already started).

The problem with Diana's current state is that ALL her damage AND her shield scales with AP. She needs to build AP first, or she doesn't do any damage. This means two things:

1) Even when she's built DPS, she still does very high burst damage, which is OP (full build DPS diana is fearsome).
2) Her value as a bruiser is weaker than it could/should be - because she needs to build AP, those items aren't being dedicated to more tankiness.

The result: DPS Diana is still more of an assassin than a bruiser. If she's taking a beating from more than one person, she dies to quickly for her DPS to work its magic. Therefore, in teamfights, it's more worthwhile to use her (still strong) burst to dive on a carry than to rely on her dps to shred a tank.

To balance Diana, she needs to be forced to choose between tanky/DPS and squishy/burst.

I propose the following:

1) Increase the base damage on her passive, and remove the AP scaling. Increase its radius.
-Now DPS Diana can forget AP and build attack speed only.
-This should give her more free item slots to build tanky items.
-Diana is now rewarded for being in the middle of things, because her passive can hit more enemies.

2) Remove her static 20% attack speed boost (Assassin Diana has less DPS).

3) Rework her shield:
--When she damages an enemy with her passive, give her 1 charge on her shield per enemy hit.
--Activating her shield consumes all charges. Damage and shield value scales with the number of charges.
This means that if she's in the middle of things, hitting multiple enemies with her passive, her shield will both be larger and do more damage; if she's behind enemy lines killing an adc, there's not enough time for her to do much damage with this.

4) Diana gains bonus armor and MR for each enemy hit by moonfall - now she can initiate properly. This also allows her to last longer and build more charges on her shield before popping that.

5) Lower the base values and increase AP scaling on her ult. Ulting to a target marked with moonlight only consumes moonlight on that target.
-If she builds DPS (no AP), her ult is now only usable for mobility/initiation.
-If she builds burst, she can now 100-0 a squishy properly with q->r->r. Additionally, her cleanup/sustained damage is now on-part with other AP assassins (Kat, Akali). Namely, if a squishy is at 100%, she needs both R's to kill them, leaving her with no more burst potential. However, if a squishy is at 60%, she can q->r to them and then r or r->r to kill another opponent. This also increases the skillcap on her q - now it is important to hit anybody you intend to damage, because there is continued play after the first combo. The cooldown on q can be lengthened to compensate.


In short, bursty Diana scales better with AP, but will need all of it she can get or her damage will fall off. As a result, she's very squishy. DPS Diana, on the other hand, can now afford not to build AP, so she has enough tankiness to use her DPS.


@Vesh


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undyl4n

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Diana is such a cool champion, and I totally agree with her passive being a really cool aspect of her gameplay. Diana's Q is on a pretty low level at higher ranks, and I've found that I don't really miss the moonlight on anyone else hit when I consume it when I R to a squishy. I've tried cool attack speed builds like Nashor's Tooth and Wits's End on Diana, but I find that I really miss the pure damage that comes with DFG or the utility from Zhonyas. Maybe giving Diana an attackspeed steroid when she consumes Moonlight with her R would give her something else to do besides simply E, Zhonyas, and hope for a follow-up. Maybe reducing the damage aspect of her W and giving her some sort of defensive steroid or even a larger shield would help her act as sort of a Jax-ish fighter, hopping around from target to target popping them down with spells and auto attacks, and of course her passive. I think someone else mentioned an MR shred on Moonfall'ed targets, and maybe giving Diana the steroid when she attacks Moonfall'ed targets makes more sense, too.


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Dopeson

Member

01-30-2014

What if we pulled some power from other parts of her kit and made it so that auto-attacks on champions start to cause the passive to proc more frequently. a third hit on a champion causes a passive proc, then every second hit, then every single hit.


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Merciless Jesus

Junior Member

01-30-2014

To my understanding, Diana is in a bit of an identity crisis where she can do a ton of things but nothing particularly well. She also has huge problems with her laning phase and tends to be outclassed by other champions when trying to fill a specific role such as an assassin.

Just a heads up, this is an extreme idea so bare with it

I personally favor the idea of assassin Diana over fighter Diana so why not scrap her current passive and spread around the base damage & ratio from her passive into her Q W & R. You can replace her passive with something like Syndra's passive that upgrades her skills. I think having the ratio and the base damage spread between her Q W & R would also improve her laning phase, though it will probably take away from her being part of small skirmishes because she would now lack the consistent damage.

As for how her "Syndra" passive would work, a few ideas that come to mind would be something like this:
At level 5 her Q could have an increased missile speed. Larger AoE? slightly Longer range or larger width on the Q.
At level 5 her W could have ... I couldn't think of anything for this skill so I'll just say a small amount of free armor and resistances while the shield is active, similar to Orianna's E, though this may cause too much of a power spike when maxed.
at level 5 her E could have it's range increased(original range on release?).
at level 3 her R could have it's range increased(original range on release?). Reset or reduce CD on kill(this is super OP).

Now I'm not against fighter Diana but I'd rather see assassin Diana prosper. Feel free to come up with better upgrades or point out why this is a terrible idea if that's what you think, but with constructive criticism please.


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Jespoke

Junior Member

01-30-2014

I think you should reduce her burst case by nuking the damage on her R, and spread the power elsewhere (Attack Speed in particular).

It would also be cool with an extra incentive to keeping the R up while still allowing you to use it to follow a flash or something. Some sort of non-damage related passive while it is off cooldown.

My reasoning here is that while QRR is not very cool, QR[skirmish]then QR again as soon as Q is off cooldown is the play pattern i like the most on her. (And the reason i build Wits End + Randuins on her in alternate gamemodes)


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Slashiroth

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.
But she's not even picked now so why do you say that? lol


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Slashiroth

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Also auto attack diana would force a rylais build, there's too much mobility in this game now, kassadin isnt' a melee mage hes a teleport mage who rifktwalks everywhere and cc's you to 0, diana is the same but can burst you faster and shes a bit tankier than kass.


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Xonu

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.
Couldn't you say the same about Quinn? She's played in literally every lane (Top, Mid, Bot, even Jungle). She has her strong points but she's not particularly the best or even suitable for some. She works as an anti-carry but her short range makes lane phase hard for her. She's a huge top lane bully but gets outscaled late game. She can do mid for her early-mid strength but again falls off later and has to resort to splitpushing with only 1 dependent escape.


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TenSlashTen

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.
Despite all these words you wrote. ALl i can remember is before dianas R/W got nerfed I played alot of jungle diana..


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Vesh plz
Yee I managed to summon you oh mighty Parrot.

First off welcome to the party glad you could make it.

How do you feel about these suggestions to make her more figter like? We all re all aware that it would be just your opinion bit I ffleel likee her role in the game and build path should contrast Leona as much as possible and thus the glass cannon assassin build makes more sense to me. I don't think of Diana as someone in a wet noodle fight or who finishes fights as a 2/4/17 champion. I don't even know if calling her a team player is fair.

Thematically I feel like she should be the kind of champion that goes 17/0/12 because she is running around to try and slaughter the enemy team for not understanding the power of the moon. I think bwe would all like PERSONAL NOT AN OFFICIAL STANCE FROM RIOT OPINION oh what she should be as you are her creator.


Also can you draw a picture of Diana going crusader mode for mu thread? It would be much appreciated.