Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

First Riot Post
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hossaim

Senior Member

01-29-2014

I play a lot of Diana, and really all she needs is a lower mana cost on her q and she will be fine.


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Jeremy Fisher

Junior Member

01-29-2014

S3 Diana main reporting in, honestly my interest in league declined in the past months after the heavy nerf, small buff, small nerf they did to her. Imo Diana is still viable and can be really snowbally but if she falls behind her actual stats make her too squishy/no dmg to come back in even lane. Back in the good Diana days you could get camped but still have an impact in team fights, but after her dmg nerf you can't go all in and kill the adc and survive long enough to live trought the fight in mid game.


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Spagyrist

Junior Member

01-29-2014

With respect to improving Diana's fighter cred, how about making W scale, not with health, but with attack speed? Here's what I'm thinking:

In order for Diana to use her shield she needs to build up orb charges, which she acquires through auto-attacks: say two AAs per orb, up to a maximum of 3 orbs. With zero charges, W is disabled - but the ability can be activated with 1, 2, or 3 stored charges. The strength and damage of her shield is proportional to the number of stored orbs - so a 3 orb shield is three times stronger than a one orb shield. To work in a balanced manner, orb charges will probably have to decay out of combat.

There are a few benefits to this approach:

1) It makes Diana's kit synergize better with her passive; by prioritizing attack speed you buff her fighter role, get more passive procs, and enable a stronger shield mechanic. Making these abilities work together opens a clearer itemization path.

2) This mitigates the toxicity of Diana as an overly-tanky assassin - yes, her shield makes her tanky, but, if she wants to use it effectively, she can't use it right after her Q-R combo - she needs to deal some damage first to build up charges. Hence, Diana can't insta-gib you and be un-killable at the same time.

3) This shield mechanic improves Diana's abilities as a sustained damage dealer, since building up more orb charges allows her to put out more detonation damage. The longer Diana stays in a fight, the higher her damage potential becomes (ie. her DPS increases as her number of orbs increases) If you REALLY wanted to prioritize a fighter build, make it so orb detonation has an execute mechanic (deals damage based on % of target's missing health). This would provide even more incentive for delaying your shield for as long as possible in a fight - the more damage you can deal to a target BEFORE loosing your shield/orbs, the more damage those orbs do.

4) This change keeps to the spirit of what makes Diana unique, while adding counter-play. Diana is still a tanky-mage, but her tankiness is no longer a sure thing - you have to earn it by putting yourself at risk. (the strength of her shield could be buffed to compensate). To counter Diana you would have to lock/burst her down immediately after her Q-R initiation - she's not an instant threat if you don't, but the longer she stays in the fight, the harder she becomes to kill, and the higher her damage becomes. By making it desirable for Diana to delay using her shield, you add a window of time for counter-play, in which Diana can be CC'ed and burst down.

5) Diana is awesome. Let's help her out.


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Domo Ahrigato

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Shh, don't talk about her, she's too fun.

But yeah, I agree with almost everything you've said here. I would personally nerf the damage on her q, because it does seem a bit high, and put that damage (and maybe more) onto her passive so that she actually has to build defensive to do do her optimal damage.


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IlyaK1986

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.
Fun shmun.

Know what's fun?

WINNING.

Know what isn't fun?

Losing.

So, in order to have fun, you want to pick the champion that's the Wolverine of his role--the champ who's the best at what he does.

Diana is the best at nothing.

She doesn't have enough escape mechanisms to be an assassin, and doesn't have enough inherent defensive steroids to be the first-in stand-and-fight bruiser of the team (if you want to argue this point, would you take Diana over Khazix? Or Diana over Shyvana/Mundo?).

LoL isn't a 1 on 1 game. It doesn't matter if you could do a couple of things half-decently. It matters if your champion can fill in a key role on the team. Diana fills no particular role well enough to warrant inclusion on any team.

Just because she has a fun gameplay style doesn't mean she has an effective gameplay style. Look, if you want to win with style and pick a worse champ for it, go ahead, pick Diana. But for those of us who play to win, she might as well be nonexistent.

The entire point of balance is so that people shouldn't have to choose between playing to have fun (because they like a character's concept/flavor) and playing to win (choosing the character that's most effective).


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Tome Desolus

Junior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR,
I have read all of your other posts and I would like to add my own vision of diana as I "main" her. The reason i was attracted to Diana was that she wasn't really labeled as a clear kit. I was able to build her in any way my team needed. This is her core strength and nothing about her is overpowered at the moment. With a 47.7% win-rate there is nothing wrong with her kit at the moment. The QRR is a specific reward for landing q's. Yes her q radius is quite large but it is her only skill shot and the most important skill of her kit. While it may be frustrating for squishies that get bursted by her combo, it is the point of building her with massive amounts of AP. Basically she is a snowballing champ just like any AP mid, and as we see in assassins they get the reward of insta gibbing your carries if your in the wrong position. I do agree that her shield is what may keep her alive in skirmishes however it wont protect much unless we can pop all 3 balls immediately. So there is quite alot of thought on whether to R after we land a q.

The only way I'd ok with any changes to Diana is if we add a timer reset if you consume the moonlight of maybe .5 seconds. this way her r gives you just a little more time to react just like akali's 1.5 second cooldown. Anything beyond .5 second however would reduce her win-rate as akali would dominate much more in the matchup due to similar kits, but akali having a guaranteed 3 charges (if full ultimate is up).


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.
What if she got something extra from refreshing her ult? In other words, R-ing to a target with Moonlight on them would give her a stacking buff that would increase her shield strength, give her passive more damage, give her some damage reduction, give her Lifesteal and Spellvamp for a while, something along those lines that would reward her for staying in the fight longer rather than just WQRR'ing, or even WRQ'ing (for the guaranteed point-blank Q). Then adjust her spell numbers as appropriate so her standard burst is a bit lower.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

It truly makes me glad that there are so many Diana fans. It honestly seemed like maybe five of us were even on GD. The main thing is that we all want her to be successful and strong but maybe not the same thing. Right now I want to know how as a fighter we can preserve her identity while still making her as good as any other tanky champion because anything that wouldkd push her towards a sun fire cape is blasphemy in the eyes of her character. Making her an assassin better isn't that horrid and could be done with her current kit but shields lacking counteray outside of damage is mot liked especially on assassins.

Ultimately though the thing we need to address is why burst damage is bad. If someone getstwo lucky crits jn a row it can feel like burst damage with the only countrplay being don't get clicked on. Sustained damage is toxic in the same ways as burst damage but one involves you just getting kited to death which is what feels like the fighter approach would lead to.

The main thing I see Riot talk about is how burst damage is anti fun to be on the receiving end of. However removing burst damage from the game because people don't enjoy dying to it is alienating to the players that actually enjoy playing it. When balancing around both parties should matter not just the loser. I feel like too many nerfs don't care about the players of the champions too.

Morello said he is fine with people quitting the game of their champion gets nerfed but not of the game gets boring. The reality is that by needing burst damage constantly the game just slowly turns into people just whacking each other and slowly dying which isn't that fun. Diana is nerfed because people found it not enjoyable to die to it is not that smart. No one likes losing or dying. This game might as well not exist if we are gonna nerf or not even explore certain mechanics because the loser might be upset.

With that being said lets talk about how to make both playstyles viable and go from there. Her being made into a bruiser is cool and all but I already have Jarvan for my iniating mildly bursting top laner. If I want to do damage and initiate fights from the jungle I have Zac. When I want to combo spells together I have my mid lane Jayce. When I want to be a marksman I will use Varus or Lucian(yes I played him before he was popular). But when I want to go mid and roam. When I want to dice the back Li e andake sure that the squishy threat is useless, I bring out Diana. I go as deep as I can and enact my IRL rage on the enemy carries. And Diana can bring the scorn of the moon upon them with me. Sk while I know burst damage intimidates Riot. It is time we stopped trying to push it out of the game. It is time we encourages people to plan how they play instead of trying to play the same way against every champ. If you see an assassin bring cc and always travel in pairs. It is extremely hindering to their playstyle. That is counterplay. We are not children we can think. The game's health would actually go up if we allowed melee dive champions to be strong. This is especially better for the export scene because it rewards strategic positioning and actually requires thinking. Look at current LCS it is a bunch of wave clear and then a team fight with Gragas. The fastest way to not have to nerd everything all the time is to start putting counterpicks into the champion info pages. Just put on champions what they are weak against in client. Champion pick variety will saoar then I guarantee it. This game has a lot of champions and strategy to it. Sure I can theory craft on my own but not everyone wants to.

To anyone saying they hate laning against Diana. Play Jayce against her. He can handle her just fine. Riven can too.


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WatDaWat

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.
Can you comment on why riven gets a shield that scales ridiculously with AD


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jmlinden7

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?
I feel like her E should feel more impactful, being her only cc. Maybe an increased radius + slow%. Right now, you aren't really rewarded for landing your E on people, considering how fast you can Q->R->passive proc->R squishies.

Buff her E.
Nerf base damage (increase scaling) on R.
Change shield back to original. Maybe slightly reduce AP scaling on it.

Diana should not be automatically able to 100-0 squishies at any point, however, she should be able to 60-0 squishies reliably: this is what assassins should do. Before a fight starts, Diana should be zoning with her poke threat and using W to absorb poke. After a fight starts, Diana should wait for her opportunity to strike, just like any other assassin. She doesn't have the tankiness or CC to be a sustained melee dps'er, don't rework her into that, she'd basically be AP Irelia.