Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Newbert Newman

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think the core Diana fantasy is spamming R on everything she hits with her Q. Plus, this is an unrealistic expectation of her. When given the tools to jump a squishy, Diana isn't going to make 4 other pit stops on the way there, she is going to go kill the target she can kill immediately. By the time that target is dead, it's not really important if other targets have moonlight on them because her Q is on such a short cooldown. Plus if moonlight lasted long enough for this to relevant the enemy team would basically be permanently revealed and there's a ton of power in the fact that it grants sight..
What about take away vision for the full duration, and then make her R like master yi's Q? It hits all enemies that have the Moonlight debuff.

Just a thought


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Big Bad250

Junior Member

01-29-2014

I think Diana is in a good spot. In fact she has been for a while. Diana has been one of the scary champs to play against those once considered "Godlike" or "Broken" champs at their peak. What I mean is, Diana could be picked to counter or at least compete with Ryze, Zed and Khazix during mid season 3 when all 3 of them were solo Q stompers. They were all seen in competitive play except Diana wasnt really seen so much.

Let me address something thats really important that Riot Vesh has said.

"Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness."

She can? Now I've been a Diana main ever since the champion came out, and this simply isn't true. How Diana works, as mentioned previously, she needs a Zhonyas Hourglass. That is undoubtably one of the most core items on her. Diana (a good one at least) Q's her target, R's in hit E while activating Zhonyas. At this point Diana has used 1 part of her R, If you're target was the ADC generally you would have used both R's but thats up to situation and prefference. This part is important, ONLY IF DIANA IS ALREADY FED AT THIS POINT will she kill the ADC. Because If She isnt a huge MONSTER who is way over lvled and way over farmed, then she would have half healthed the adc who (while Diana is in zhonyas) will be lifestealing his or her life back anyways.

Diana then comes out of zhonyas (The active being 2.5 seconds of untargateability) and Her Q is still not off cooldown, however it comes up in 2 seconds because Max rank Diana Q is 6 second cooldown. Diana hits her W for the shield or this TANKINESS (?) and gets killed by CC or a crit from an ADC.

However if Diana lives past the zhonyas she will Q > R > R one last time and at this point will 100% be dead to whatever the enemy team has.

So whats my point? well, lets go back to Riot Vesh's statement... "Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out".

Ok. at what point in any of this does it show that Diana has the kit to get out of fights? I've proven that majority of the time she wont stay alive to the tankiness even though Vesh has said she will. I dont understand the problem at this point and I dont see why Diana would need a nerf. Her only gap closer puts her next to people, it isnt like yasuo's E where it puts them far away from them, and its not like akali's where you can rapidly use them. Diana is very high skill cap and she currently doesnt fit the meta, neither in high solo Q or in competitive. She is very good with follow up damage from the team, and she does do a good amount of damage. but since she has 2 damage dealing abilities (for the most part since her W isnt gaurenteed damage when activated) and she only appears to exceed at her job when shes super farmed and super ahead (but what champion doesn appear to be completely BROKEN when over lvled and ahead)

I honestly feel like as soon as Gragas and Kassadin are both adjusted to get balanced out, Diana will be one of the top tier mid laners in the game and this whole post then has no purpose.

TL;DR - the champion is fine the way she is, she is a "Balls Deep" champ that requires you to use ur entire kit then die in order to do your job UNLESS YOUR SUPER FED. Diana will once again see her time back at the top of the solo Lanes soon


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Gucci Nips

Junior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.
Thanks for the reply

But I am a bit confused on your intent, you want to change her to be more of a DPS fighter, but you don't want to make changes to her numbers? What I said didn't seem like "sweeping changes" it was just give her some more in built tankiness and less AP scaling damage. What changes did you have in mind to make her more of a DPS fighter over a burst assassin? Or, to word it better, which suggestions to accomplish this do you like the most?


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Wards win games

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think the core Diana fantasy is spamming R on everything she hits with her Q. Plus, this is an unrealistic expectation of her. When given the tools to jump a squishy, Diana isn't going to make 4 other pit stops on the way there, she is going to go kill the target she can kill immediately. By the time that target is dead, it's not really important if other targets have moonlight on them because her Q is on such a short cooldown. Plus if moonlight lasted long enough for this to relevant the enemy team would basically be permanently revealed and there's a ton of power in the fact that it grants sight..
But what if it was looked at more as a change to give her a way to escape, as opposed to a way to increase or shift her playstyle?

I could see this greatly benefiting assassin diana's ability to disengage from an encounter, which notably is an issue for her once she's in. It could also give her a more reliable method of getting into the fight, similar to how yasuo's E assists his ability to get to the back line.

I'm just curious what the "dangers" of allowing her to reset on multiple targets are. They obviously exist, just personal curiosity so I can better understand these design things ^.^.

I personally think allowing her to reset on multiple targets would give you some wiggle room with her Q CD. With the ability to reset on multiple targets her Q CD could be slightly increased, allowing room to allocate some more power into her shield or passive, or hell, even put a slight damage ratio on her E to make it more useful prior to level 6.


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Vortex IV

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Wouldn't mind seeing her Q missile travel faster and possibly her R being able to be used on friendlies/minions with no cooldown trigger.

I don't really agree with all the people wanting her kit to be turned upside down.


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Lunar Lightning

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.
have u ever thought of making her q reset on kill and or assist? i feel like if that happend shed be a very viable pick


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Mistiya

Member

01-29-2014

You know what I think? I think Diana's R should be moved to her E, have the damage reduced, and move her E to her R and buff the hell out of it (Either give it an Orianna-level damage component or a larger radius aoe slow that lasts 2-3 seconds.)

Why? Because Diana doesn't function as a champion without her R. It's why her jungle is so weak right now, even though she should be a great jungler with the new spirit stone. She needs her R to kill anyone, she can't get in range to USE her E until she has her R, so her E is a dead spell until after 6. She has TWO skills before 6, and then she gains 3 more skills (E and R+R) at six and suddenly she's a real champion. That sucks.

It works for Akali because Akali has good defensive options that don't require mana. It doesn't work for Diana because Diana can't use her shield the way Yasuo uses his, it costs too much and pushes the wave.

Personally I love Diana and want her to be a top-tier jungler. So I'd take "less damage + more reliability" Diana can't leave a fight once she joins it, so she has to provide CC and followup or she just dies. I prefer fighter Diana to assassin Diana, but right now she takes too long to grow into her role, she doesn't fit into the game very well because she cannot gank before 6, and as a melee champ it's too easy to harass her out of lane when only 2 of her buttons do anything until 6.


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Lunar Lightning

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

glad to hear you dont want to change her much, shes borderline viable, i mean i maged to pull off a 55% win rate with her last season and i played over 100 games, sure im not diamond elo, but i was gold 1.


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Lunar Lightning

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bad250 View Post
I think Diana is in a good spot. In fact she has been for a while. Diana has been one of the scary champs to play against those once considered "Godlike" or "Broken" champs at their peak. What I mean is, Diana could be picked to counter or at least compete with Ryze, Zed and Khazix during mid season 3 when all 3 of them were solo Q stompers. They were all seen in competitive play except Diana wasnt really seen so much.

Let me address something thats really important that Riot Vesh has said.

"Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness."

She can? Now I've been a Diana main ever since the champion came out, and this simply isn't true. How Diana works, as mentioned previously, she needs a Zhonyas Hourglass. That is undoubtably one of the most core items on her. Diana (a good one at least) Q's her target, R's in hit E while activating Zhonyas. At this point Diana has used 1 part of her R, If you're target was the ADC generally you would have used both R's but thats up to situation and prefference. This part is important, ONLY IF DIANA IS ALREADY FED AT THIS POINT will she kill the ADC. Because If She isnt a huge MONSTER who is way over lvled and way over farmed, then she would have half healthed the adc who (while Diana is in zhonyas) will be lifestealing his or her life back anyways.

Diana then comes out of zhonyas (The active being 2.5 seconds of untargateability) and Her Q is still not off cooldown, however it comes up in 2 seconds because Max rank Diana Q is 6 second cooldown. Diana hits her W for the shield or this TANKINESS (?) and gets killed by CC or a crit from an ADC.

However if Diana lives past the zhonyas she will Q > R > R one last time and at this point will 100% be dead to whatever the enemy team has.

So whats my point? well, lets go back to Riot Vesh's statement... "Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out".

Ok. at what point in any of this does it show that Diana has the kit to get out of fights? I've proven that majority of the time she wont stay alive to the tankiness even though Vesh has said she will. I dont understand the problem at this point and I dont see why Diana would need a nerf. Her only gap closer puts her next to people, it isnt like yasuo's E where it puts them far away from them, and its not like akali's where you can rapidly use them. Diana is very high skill cap and she currently doesnt fit the meta, neither in high solo Q or in competitive. She is very good with follow up damage from the team, and she does do a good amount of damage. but since she has 2 damage dealing abilities (for the most part since her W isnt gaurenteed damage when activated) and she only appears to exceed at her job when shes super farmed and super ahead (but what champion doesn appear to be completely BROKEN when over lvled and ahead)

I honestly feel like as soon as Gragas and Kassadin are both adjusted to get balanced out, Diana will be one of the top tier mid laners in the game and this whole post then has no purpose.

TL;DR - the champion is fine the way she is, she is a "Balls Deep" champ that requires you to use ur entire kit then die in order to do your job UNLESS YOUR SUPER FED. Diana will once again see her time back at the top of the solo Lanes soon
i agree with you there, i will rarely dive onto an adc mid-late game because i have no way of getting out. and she just doesnt have the damage to 100-0 them. most of the time its either pick off someone out of position which gets harder the higher your elo is, or go in once every 5 minutes because u can flash out


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolferer View Post
It's always the risk with changing how a champion works that you upset someone who liked them the way they were. Pretty much every rework that comes around, there's someone posting on Reddit that the champion is worse post-rework than before (just today we had someone post about skarner). So, to establish first, it's impossible for everyone to be happy with a change. Thus, a requirement for making a change is not for everyone to be happy with it.

I didn't restate the points that were discussed earlier in this thread. In his first post in this thread, Vesh comes to a similar conclusion, that Diana's fighter/bruiser aspects are more compelling than her assassin aspects (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...77595#44777595). An assassin Diana hits a Q, then uses her targeted ult twice, and gets a little more damage in with w and some autos. If this is enough damage, he target dies, if it doesn't, then she is way out of position and can't do anything other than walk away.

My comparisons were Fizz and Akali. Fizz has choices to make when he is trying to assassinate someone. These include when he uses his Playful/Trickster, whether he ults from a long range or tries to gap close first, and whether he uses his Q when his target gains distance to keep up, or when he is close to his target to get some distance and wait for cooldowns while kiting.

Akali can lay down her shroud and hide while waiting for Q cooldowns, and can kite back and forth more due to having 3 (or 4 in a long fight) ult activations. She can also do plays like land a ranged Q, wait until it's almost off cooldown, then ult, proc Q, and get another Q in a short time (Q has 6 second cooldown at level 1, the proc lasts 6 seconds).

Diana can sort of do the Akali Q thing, but her window to do it is way worse. Moonlight lasts for 3 seconds, and Q is a 10 second cooldown at level 1, 6 at level 5. So even if you have 40% CDR, you're still looking at a 1-2 second wait depending on how tightly you time it. It basically boils down to, do you wait to QRQRR, or do you just QRR, and that's just a question of how much damage you did.

I'll also point out that it doesn't have to be black or white, fighter or assassin. Consider it more of a spectrum. There are fighters like Shen who tend to be tankier, then there's fighters like Jarvan who can imitate an assassin pretty darn well. Then there's assassins like Talon who burst and get out of dodge. I think Diana would be more interesting if she was an AP righter in the Jarvan area of the spectrum. You can build Jarvan with pure damage and EQR squishies to death. You can also build Jarvan tanky and enjoy fairly high damage and good team fight initiation and utility. I'd like to see Diana in that space, instead of being a burst caster who initiate only if she buys Zhonyas. The reason is that as an assassin, her play is too binary and forced her to be nerfed to the state she currently is in.

You are definitely correct that if people like Diana as she is, it may very well not be worth changing her. I was just throwing around some ideas. I think it'd be more valuable for you, and people like you who don't want Diana to change, to explain what exactly about her kit that you enjoy. She could still be the champion you love even if she is adjusted a bit, and if you make it clear what it is you love about her, those things may not be the ones that are adjusted.
Thank you for writing that out.

Iím okay with change. Iíve been arguing for her change for a few months now. What I am not totally convinced of is that her play pattern is so different and so much more toxic than other examples of what she does.

To be honest, I am not really sure how to respond. You use examples of Akali, Fizz, and Talon, as positive examples of healthy gameplay. I have trouble agreeing with you on that, very basic, level.

Diana is fun for me because she has no alternative option. She has no escape. She has no Plan B. The raw agression...Scorn of the Moon....is what is compelling about her.

I think there is room to change her to make her less "feast or famine".

But my suggested changes are small.

I'd like her passive to not expire. I want to be glowing, flashing, threatening. I almost WANT to telegraph my plans of brutish assassination. As it stands, the passive fades, and my chance to go in fades with it.

I don't think the situation is as complicated as health ratios, missile speed slows, or attack speed buffs.

I, skewer me on a stick, actually think.....she's well designed.