Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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atresj

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exponential View Post
Playing her as a burst assassin feels exactly like playing a weaker Akali.
Dude, I think you haven't played Diana immediately after she came out. She was outclassing Akali back then in every way. She has had MUCH more damage and WAY better survivability while also doing the only thing Akali lacks - throwing out great Orianna-ulti-like CC.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
This pushes her way too far into Tank Land. Tank Land is bad for Diana, because when they called her a heretic, they died: They didn't get annoyed by plinking away at her armor until they cried themselves a surrender.

So consider the primary design goals here:

Diana wants AP. She wants to whack things.

See, that makes her a 'melee carry', but those don't exist in League of Legends. Hence perhaps the problem.

So how can Diana actually in fact be a 'melee carry' and not explode?

League's past solution has been "here, have this Sunfire Cape". This is obviously bad for Diana.

"But if she builds AP she just assassinates someone?" No. This is what you need to change.

Take a good long stare at Jax, then remove Diana's initial burst in favor of stacking damage.

That's how you make a potential carry who isn't really an assassin in disguise (unfortunately like Fiora, or perhaps every other 'melee carry').

"But she needs to survive to stack damage, right?" Right. Defensive steroids.

I'm not joking: Moonfall makes her Invulnerable if it hits an enemy champion.

How is that balanced? Well she doesn't have initial "blam" damage, she has to stack it.

Which Titanic Defensive Steroids buy her time to do.
That seems....grossly overpowered. I don't want a tank Diana. Obviously. I don't even want a bruiser Diana. But they'd have to gut her kit to give her a Lissandra ult on her e.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Right now, her Lunar Rush has to be treated as a 1.2 AP ratio spell. It's optimal to double-use it in 99% of cases, and where it isn't you QR...QR a bunch which only takes ~4 seconds.

I think that double cast is bad for her. The reward for QR should be something other than 'have a free nuke + gapcloser'. That second nuke is bad for her game health and the gapcloser makes it so you can't run from her and she has sustained damage so you can't fight.

She should get a different reward for QR than just another R.


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Exponential

Junior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by atresj View Post
Dude, I think you haven't played Diana immediately after she came out. She was outclassing Akali back then in every way. She has had MUCH more damage and WAY better survivability while also doing the only thing Akali lacks - throwing out great Orianna-ulti-like CC.

...and everyone agreed that was OP and bad for the game. I was comparing them both in their current states. Currently, building assassin Diana,while strong if ahead, is basically a weaker Akali (Akali's q isn't a skill-shot and multiple dashes are not reliant on her q).


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Aelms

Member

01-29-2014

From what I personally feel, and what seems to be the consensus in the discussion, is that Diana's main problem is her gameplay pattern of gap-closing, doing huge burst damage and gaining burst tankiness all in one swift combo. Just by seeing this as the main problem, its really clear why Diana is perceived more as an assassin-type champion rather than a bruiser as her design may have intended to be.

From what I feel, there shouldn't be number rebalancing based on the current iteration of her kit; that only brings further a problem that lies in the integrity of her kit. That being said, I'm not saying that any of the properties of Diana's spells need to be changed either. Instead, I feel that the best thing to do is to clarify the specific properties of each spell.

If we put her current kit design into simple statements, given that this is entirely my interpretation and could differ from Riot's intended design:

  • The Q-R combo is a gap closing tool.
  • The W spell gives tankiness of some sort.
  • The E spell is a short ranged, high effect crowd control/utility spell.
  • Diana has high DPS through an auto attack modifier of some sort.

Looking at this, I honestly don't find the necessity of Q-R or even Q by itself to have huge amounts of damage; rather, having Q-R do the majority of the damage is a heavy reduction of potential decisions that a player playing this champion could make.

Building upon the list above, I think some of the following ideas might be useful food for thought:
  • As an AP-based bruiser, she will lose out on some advantages that AD-based bruisers have naturally (higher base AD, lifesteal); this should be the main payoff and justification that she has for the utility/mobility of her kit
  • Burst damage on her kit leads to really toxic gameplay; I feel that an emphasis on DPS rather than quick burst is a possible solution
  • There are many levers for allowing Diana to feel impactful even without Q-R burst damage; her E spell, which is currently tuned only as a utility spell has a lot of potential
  • Compared to a version of Diana who can kill the enemy in a single rotation (meaning her gameplay revolves around when she enters a fight), I would much rather play a tankier, low burst-damage iteration that encourages continous decision making (but may also have more ways of affecting the fight other than putting down damage)


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atresj

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
This pushes her way too far into Tank Land. Tank Land is bad for Diana, because when they called her a heretic, they died: They didn't get annoyed by plinking away at her armor until they cried themselves a surrender.

So consider the primary design goals here:

Diana wants AP. She wants to whack things.

See, that makes her a 'melee carry', but those don't exist in League of Legends. Hence perhaps the problem.

So how can Diana actually in fact be a 'melee carry' and not explode?

League's past solution has been "here, have this Sunfire Cape". This is obviously bad for Diana.

"But if she builds AP she just assassinates someone?" No. This is what you need to change.

Take a good long stare at Jax, then remove Diana's initial burst in favor of stacking damage.

That's how you make a potential carry who isn't really an assassin in disguise (unfortunately like Fiora, or perhaps every other 'melee carry').

"But she needs to survive to stack damage, right?" Right. Defensive steroids.

I'm not joking: Moonfall makes her Invulnerable if it hits an enemy champion.

How is that balanced? Well she doesn't have initial "blam" damage, she has to stack it.

Which Titanic Defensive Steroids buy her time to do.
You could just make her get additional Armor and MR for each Moonlight stack consumed, without cap. This way you'll reward players for landing beautiful Crescent Strikes while also maintaining those steroids you're talking about. And also you'd make Diana a high skill cap champion. No need for invulnerability, IMO.

How do I see it: each consumed Moonlight stack grants her +2/4/6 (per Ultimate level) Armor and Magic Resistance for 5 seconds. This way, if she isn't stopped during, like, first 12 seconds of the fight, you're finding yourself facing off a 300 Armor / 300 MR bursting monster. We could also leave her damage where it is right now this way.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
That seems....grossly overpowered. I don't want a tank Diana. Obviously. I don't even want a bruiser Diana. But they'd have to gut her kit to give her a Lissandra ult on her e.
No. Not Lissandra ult. Kayle ult.

Elise and Fizz already have Lissandra ult on their Es.


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Gaambino

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I feel that it would be even cooler if she started off in a more "initiator" type role with her R->E and maybe zhonyas that set up her team to follow up with additional CC and then transitioned into fighter mode after. Diana feels really good when she's hitting people with her epic moonblade.

With the way she functions currently, her assassin pattern would basically just degenerate to an even more bursty Akali with less options and less points of mastery.
Yes! Some attention for Diana. Im going to reiterate what the OP said, on a commitment to the character and the identity of this champ. When I was trying to find champs that I could relate to, Diana was right up there on the totem pole. But for as much as I like her, I think she lacks....depth. Like she is supposed to be this jaded, fanatical zealot right? Where is that in her actual playstyle? What if for example you changed her R into a reduced burst gapclose, but when used on a target debuffed by Q she gets an attack speed steroid and a weak decaying ms theft that takes some flat amount of ms from the target (a low amount, that scales with rank), and returns it to them over time. When under the condition of this buff Diana channels the moon through herself, becoming etheral (eyes glowing, wispy smoke emanating from her person, hollower voice, the whole nine yards),and ignores unit collision. In addition to this, her W shield is now something similar to Fiora W, or something, just a more engaging tool than it is. Diana must keep procing her passive on her enemy to tide over between Q cds, has some tools to do so, and functions in the lategame (at least i envision her functioning) as a lategame melee carry with AP damage instead of AD damage. Like Yasuo but with no lifesteal, but solid gapclosers and tanky in exchange.


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atresj

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exponential View Post
...and everyone agreed that was OP and bad for the game. I was comparing them both in their current states. Currently, building assassin Diana,while strong if ahead, is basically a weaker Akali (Akali's q isn't a skill-shot and multiple dashes are not reliant on her q).
Yeah, but that isn't something you should compare. Diana has been pretty much nerfed to the ground so there's no use bringing that up because that is exactly the reason why are we speaking about her in the first place. ^^


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Gahlo

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Will you be looking into her laning as well? Last I played her I felt like it disolved to "get flask and pots, play super defensive, and just try and hit 6 without being massively behind." When her Q was stronger it was just qqqqqqqq the waves away. Not it feels like she can't clear a wave easily without being forced to go in to auto...and then have to blow a ton of mana for her shield.

Obviously, this wasn't a very fun pattern.